This is an argument born of semantics.

I'm somewhat left but live in a capitalist society.

I don't really care if that leads you to categorise me as "not leftist'

Being in a capitalist system isn’t the decider, propping it up is. Do you want to overthrow the capitalist system or do you want to add safeguards to make it more palatable?

That's a pretty big question.

I think, all things considered I do not wish to "overthrow the capitalist system", so that means I'm in the latter category.

That said, I believe that overthrowing the capitalist system would require much suffering. Violent armed conflict. Famine. Social upheaval and unrest. Additionally, with a strong likelihood that the processed would be derailed and produce a dystopia rather than the socialist age the revolutionists might intend.

That being the case the portion of people who would belong to the former category if fully informed would be infinitessimal.

Yep that's a pretty right wing take

Oh boy.

Oof

the political compass

Marx spinning wildly in his grave

That went down pretty easy actually

Someone must have snicker it into my pudding bc I didn’t even notice it.

I wish I knew we were supposed to take them orally.

if youre not boofing your leftism pills theyre not really even doing anything

Is there a Project 2025 alternative for the left?

You mean what would happen after "the Left" overthrows the state?

I dont really care what americans want the meaning of "Leftist" to be.

I personally don't find those pills particularly hard to swallow! I chug 'em by the fistful

Actual leftists would also recognize the reality of the system and acknowledge that Dems are considerably less destructive than Republicans and so would advocate voting for Dems as a method of harm reduction while working to reform the system. You're not doing that.

Actual leftists would recognize that voting for the child-killers that support the Republicans and help them build out their projects aren't actually harm-reduction in the long run. The Democrats are simply a tool to keep leftists satisfied with worthless demonstrations and political posturing, without actually opposing the Republicans.

Fuck off accelerationist. Propose an actually realistic option that doesn't give republicans power. I'll wait.

votes for Republicans is what gives them power

Republicans are in power because of FPTP, so literally everyone against the Republicans is vocally against FPTP.

I like how libs always have to tell me what it is that I believe, instead of engaging with the things that I say.

The obvious is to vote 3rd party. But mostly realize that voting is one of the least effective methods that we have. Rebellion, sharing information, protesting, mutual aide, joining and building unions, etc.

I also like how your criteria is "...doesn’t give republicans power", something that the Democrats do all the time.

A third party vote is in very nearly every district in the US a spoiler vote because third parties are fundamentally unviable in very nearly every district in the US. If you're politically informed and engaged you'd already know about the incredibly well documented spoiler effect. But you're not engaging in good faith in the first place are ya?

A third party vote is in very nearly every district in the US a spoiler vote because third parties are fundamentally unviable in very nearly every district in the US.

That assumes that every third party vote is going to the candidate you want, which is clearly not true.

If you’re politically informed and engaged you’d already know about the incredibly well documented spoiler effect.

And if you're politically informed, you know that the Democrats would rather let the Republicans win, then let leftists have a chance. They spend more time punching left, than they do fighting Republicans.

But you’re not engaging in good faith in the first place are ya?

The person who told me what my beliefs are, ignores the points I've made, and has hypocritical standards is accusing me of not engaging in good faith?

Classic lib

You're very bad at trolling.

there is a troll here but you didn't find them

The troll farms and bots have been in full force as of late.

The both sides are the same propaganda and obsession with labels about "true leftists" has been pretty obvious. You also get like 4 or 5 replies if you point this out even on a post with zero comments and little upvotes.

Its to discourage voting at the end of the day and we should be wary of instances where that seems to be the main type of posts like lemmy.ML

Its to discourage voting at the end of the day....

Well, sorta. It's to discourage voting for the people who bombed kids, supported rapists, supported ICE, increased funding to the US military, funded torture and kidnapping programs, etc. Luckily there are other options than those.

It's also meant to discourage people from only voting, and then going back to brunch as soon as the "Good child-bombers" get elected.

I do a push up after every time I read “unity/e/divide [the] left.”
Now I got agitprop to reshare.

How is "dividing the left" if they don't share any of the same goals or methods?

Gatekeeping a Progressive Movement by denying entry to those who do not meet your ideological standards, even though those people share similar frustrations, is pretty devisive.

Abdul El-Sayed is a great example. He bills himself as a Capitalist, but is pushing for socialist policies (socialized medicine, taxing the rich to support social initiatives, banning corporate home ownership):

When asked point-blank if he considers himself a socialist, El-Sayed didn’t flinch.

"I'm not. I'm a capitalist who just understands capitalism," he said.

He is a Democrat and refusing to support him because he doesn't fully align with what YOU think is the absolute moral position is very short-sighted.

Whether or not he follows through with his promises remains to be seen, but for now he is representing Leftist policies that I certainly want to see implemented.

https://news.meaww.com/abdul-el-sayed-rejects-socialist-label-says-im-a-capitalist-who-understands-capitalism

https://abdulforsenate.com/priorities/

"Taxing the rich" and "no corporate home ownership" are not socialist policies - these are social-democrat compromises. They might be improvements over the status quo, but that's an extremely low bar, and they will likely fail to solve bigger issues, or even buffer them against further change.

Pop open his platform page and pretend he is being honest. Are there any policies that you would like to see implemented in your area?

If he gets elected and fails to substantially deliver on his promises, I'll be the first in line to disavow him.

Voting isn't the end all be all of change, but it is a method that has shown it can result in massive change (see Zohran Mandani and Donald Trump for the extremes of that change.)

The virtues of his policies are irrelevant to your description of them as "socialist" policies - your understanding of what a socialist is and/or believes is incorrect.

ETA: also, Mamdani is not "extreme" by any metric, except perhaps "ignorant American political spectrum"

Aside from his position on socialized medicine, yeah I gave bad examples.

I will fight to expand Medicare to cover all necessary healthcare, including vision, dental, and hearing, and extend it to every single American from cradle to grave without premiums, copays, or deductibles. Medicare should be automatic, for everyone, and accepted everywhere.

Pardon me for using the American political spectrum to define what is extreme in the country I live in.

"Expanding Medicare" is also not a socialist policy - healthcare should be entirely divorced from any concept of "cost".

I'm not attempting to shame you for your ignorance, merely make you aware of it. Read socialist literature and philosophy before making claims about whose policies adhere to it.

Free your capital✊🏿

I hope your method works and we all arrive at a better future!

SoupBrick be like

Nice assumption, but I don't have capital to speak of nor do I foresee being able to afford any (including one house, nonetheless two.)

I am a working class Leftist, whether you choose to believe it or not.

I just believe there are multiple methods of change and it is stupid to throw one away because it violates your ideological purity.

Then you should be solidifying with us on ending private land.

violates your ideological purity.

This is Liberal rhetoric. Anarchists solidify, liberals purify social progress.

REAL Leftists DO NOT use the ballot box to fight against fascism!

EVEN if you are voting for a candidate who is promising Leftist policies, you are STILL not a Leftist!

Capitalists (EVEN workers who own NO capital) CANNOT be part of this movement until they sell ALL their belongings that could be CONSIDERED capital!

Lemmy "leftists" are so funny xD

Keep fighting the revolution keyboard warrior!

When you ask a Democrat how to takedown fascism, you get anti-intersecting comments like these, instead of demolishing deathcamps.

If only electoralists voted at the deathcamps😔

How does NOT voting abolish deathcamps?

It sure seems like there is a lot more death camps after people didn't vote in 2024.

MY argument is for American citizens to use their privilege to vote.

Because one is a physical direct activity, while the other makes Obama & Biden lie again.

privilege to vote

Glad you admit your class, bourgie.

Like the other comment said, you're full of shit. This is either a bot or a paid foreign troll farm.

Reader, be wary of instances where they screech "both sides" while offering no other solution and have this weird obsession with labeling Democrats as "not real leftists".

If that doesn't work they'll call you a keyboard warrior... As if they type these things out with their mind... We all know it's just disingenuous and is only meant to keep democrat turnout low because billionaires are paying for these bots

I did 8 pushups on ur disinfo. Now ⏳ for some 🍵. What's ur fav. 3rd party?

So your belief is that you have to choose between either voting or direct action?

You can waste your time reregistering to vote and demolish deathcamps. But Democrats will arrest you for the latter.

  1. The Republicans don't want Leftists or Democrats to vote, which I guess is a position you can find common ground with them on.

  2. Not sure what police cooperating with the federal gestapo has to do with voting or not voting, but I guess maybe don't give the thin blue line party a free victory?

  3. Again, the REPUBLICAN gestapo doing gestapo shit. (I am aware Biden was a POS by way of immigration policy as well, but the Republicans have enabled and funded ICE to do damage at a much larger scale than before.)

  • Here is Abdul's position on ICE:

ICE has become a tool for autocracy. Its culture of aggression, impunity, and disregard for the rule of law cannot be reformed or retrained. It must be abolished.

  1. https://ibbit.at/post/202598 leads to https://jordanlarson.info/ did you mean to put this link there? 🤣

  2. Hell yeah, brother. I can get onboard with some Liberal bashing. Fuck his non-commitment to getting ICE out.

Should immigrants be deported if they commit a serious crime?

Abdul El-Sayed voterbase

Yes

What? Did you expect the answer to be No? I think any government will arrest activists who engage in destructive direct action.

  1. Yeah, those are the Democrats the Progressive Leftist are trying to force out of the government with grassroots campaigns. Winning those seats requires voting.

  1. Actual leftists comprehend direct action preceed democratic collective decision making. Democrats do neither. Democrats are Republicans who always impoverish the population. There’s no single Democrat intersecting with civilians, and giving their capital to constituents.

  2. That these Democrats side with Nazis, again, again, again, and again. Those are Democrat cops.

  3. Obama could have abolished ICE twice. He didn't, because slavery is cost effective. Biden also deported more people than both combined. They are the same party.

  1. I linked Abdul El-Sayed’s own platform too. He is willing to deport people based on arbitrary crimes. Knowning full well legal and illegal migrants pay more in taxes than landlords.

  2. Then, when are Democrats going to empower us. Where’s the “Demolition for liberation” militia?

  3. Then you're a liberal, that is ok when Nazis and liberals vanguard their crimes with law, but oppress the larcenied (tax “payers”) with enforcement. The fact AI companies are not applied the same set of copyright laws prove what Democrats intend to arbitrate for “criminal” migrants. Rules for thee, not me.

  1. Seats they arbitrate gerrymandering, and College Electorates. Democrats are the bourgeoisie. They are the enemy of the proletariat, time immemorial. Learn your enemy, so you can fight them effectively.

You sound like a cosplaying middle manager. Nobody is taking you seriously for very good reason. You're full of shit.

The both sides propaganda is now just straight up saying not to vote

Of course they offer no other remediation, solution or suggestion because they're only meant to discourage voting be used the billionaire class is afraid of a blue wave much bigger than 2020

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