Dort_Owl [they/them, any]
askchapoHe wasn't even running, Hillary was. He just loves fucking over marginalized groups that much
The worst part is it's not just liberals that do this. Sometimes it's leftists or even minorites trying to be "one of the good ones"
Fuck. Normal.
Normal got us global warming, data centers and assholes who open-mouth cough during a pandemic.
I've been rolling this around in my head as the discourse has gone on. I don't know if anyone is talking about the same thing. I think 'normal' just sucks as a term tbh. It has inherent reactionary undertones, and can mean anything from "sit down and shut up, take the L, moderate your positions" to "don't be antisocial, don't jump to hostilities, assume good faith." Fuck the former, but I think the latter is important.
Anyone trying to express the latter would be well-served by reframing it as "be cordial." You cannot have a movement if you can't be cordial. You will not be able to organize with people you are ready to deem an enemy without further investigation.
Speaking of Obama fuckery, anyone remember the NBA strike that was making some real headway? Then he popped his head up from whatever consulting gig he was doing to weigh in on the side of the team owners and helped crush it?
Hahaha oh wow I forgot about this one, goddamnit this dude sucks
To activist trying to get Obama to move on trans rights
No no no no Hey, Listen! You're in my house!
Not now honey, it's pragma-prism time!
And in Iran a trans person ran up to ayatollah Khomeini's residence and asked for trans rights and got them
Can you elaborate? I know the Islamic Republic has been in some ways very permissive on trans issues but I don't know how that was established, so this story sounds interesting
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Sometimes it's leftists or even minorites trying to be "one of the good ones"
Yeah at one point i've had a run-in with a trans woman on lemmygrad who was really fucking adament that we should just concede the sports ban issue because it affects such a small part of the community (which is precisely why the GOP has made it their core anti-trans talking point, you can wage this war on the back of literally 5 college students and a couple hundred trans girls that are already out in highschool, but it has implications that directly affect every single trans person out there). Probably not surprising that she also gave off the biggest transmed vibes you can imagine and also vagueposted about what a community elder with a long history of activism she was, which probably meant "i've been out for 5 years and have been to three corporate pride marches in the 2nd year of that".
Regarding Obama, he's always the guy in the Dems who does the disciplining. When Obama talks to you, it means the DNC thinks you've overstepped your boundaries and Daddy Tan Suit is kindly reminding you what the party line is.
It is exactly how 'wedge issues' wedge their way into larger issues.
People really need to understand that the sports ban issue is rooted in the same ideology as putting trans women into mens prisons.
And it's not even just a trans issue. The people who boost it are the same people who want to eliminate Title IX and nuke all women's sports. Plus there's the fact that enforcing it inevitably leads to violating the privacy of every single girl who completes. I wish more women understood how this stuff is connected - at the Olympic level, every major "trans controversy" has resulted in a cis woman getting harmed.
it's also rooted in the same ideology as segregation, let them ban trans people from spots today and the chuds could be pushing to bing back the clolored league tomorrow
Or the bathroom issue, or anything that boils down to treating trans and inter people as a gender randomly and coercively assigned at birth.
Obama has been proud of the fact he’s an absolute fraud. Like I give him ten years until he goes the way of Muskrat.
~~Real socialism has never been tried~~ Real not-being-a-republicanism has never been tried!
obama crashout arc
Melting down at people for not liking his movies
I'm actually totally in favor of pragmatism, but there is a line, and things like "pragmatic genocide" are well past that line. So are things like "pragmatic systemic human rights erasure" which is what all of the anti trans "wait your turn" rehtoric is.
Pragmatism is making small compromises now for bigger payoffs later, not "let's abuse and erase entire swathes of the global population"
I've had enough of compromising with people that harm me the first chance they get
This is the problem with the American political discourse, the weasels have twisted and conflated “pragmatism” into a euphemism for “genuflect to the most horrible people in the room.” Pragmatism just means, do the best thing given the circumstances. Making overtures to people who will never budge an inch isn’t pragmatic, it’s dogmatic. It’s, these are the holy political methods handed down from the elders, they work because , any argument to the contrary must be unreasonable.
Every proletarian has been through strikes and has experienced “compromises” with the hated oppressors and exploiters, when the workers have had to return to work either without having achieved anything or else agreeing to only a partial satisfaction of their demands. Every proletarian—as a result of the conditions of the mass struggle and the acute intensification of class antagonisms he lives among—sees the difference between a compromise enforced by objective conditions (such as lack of strike funds, no outside support, starvation and exhaustion)—a compromise which in no way minimises the revolutionary devotion and readiness to carry on the struggle on the part of the workers who have agreed to such a compromise—and, on the other hand, a compromise by traitors who try to ascribe to objective causes their self-interest (strike-breakers also enter into “compromises”!), their cowardice, desire to toady to the capitalists, and readiness to yield to intimidation, sometimes to persuasion, sometimes to sops, and sometimes to flattery from the capitalists.
Lenin says you're both right.
Honestly? Tagline material.
And it’s not like it even helps them.
Never before have I seen a republican or anyone point to some dems and say “well, these dems aren’t so bad after all.” Not like you hear dems bragging about how moving right they get all these messages on how just listening to transphobes helped “save them from the alt-right pipeline”.
It’s so infuriating how the SJW label was so powerful then the idea of writing off the privileged is anathema to democrats. If some “white working class” guy is more concerned with keeping his privileges for being white than claiming any power as a worker, he thinks like the bourgeoisie and is a class traitor.
It helps them move to the right, which is the actual goal
It's not compromise if we don't have a say in it, and if we had a say in it we wouldn't choose to marginalize ourselves
Yes. I also remember when he could have codified Roe v Wade and even promised to do so but didn’t.
I remember when he promised "change" and then there was no change.
The first hint of Obama's snakelike nature came early, when he walked back a pro gay marriage statement he had made as a state senator.
Hell, under his watch we only got gay marriage because the unelected Supreme Court decided it was a privacy issue, not because he fought for it.
uhh let me be clear: uhhhh sometimes folks are actually quite, uh, evil and uhhhh they should be in power
Not defending obama at all but we really do need to be normal.
Our issue comes from the right picking whatever terrible talking point out of a hat then the left and left adjacent reacting to the talking point in an endless cycle to the point where the debate just turns into 2 abnormal polars that majority of people don't care about that deeply, or become so annoyed by the debates pick a polar side and camp there.
There are like 5 trans kids in sports out of the of the whole country which is mostly a non-issue and really shouldn't take up public discourse in lieu of more materially equitable things for the masses. Instead the direction should be healthcare for all including Trans adults and Trans children. And shut down any other endless culture war debates right there. I think that's being normal.
The bathroom debates that took up most of the teens. First of all there aren't any public toilets in the first place and if there are they are either co-ed anyway because its single stall or nobody was watching hard enough to care who goes where. But because the discourse was endless, now people are obsessed with who is using what bathroom which is such a non-issue and had no reason to become one. We should have redirected the argument for more public accessible bathrooms for everybody full stop, and if some bad actors were like "well you want mixed sex bathroom?" We say I want everyone to use the bathroom full stop. I think that's normal.
Normal is redirecting right wing cultural babble back on data centers, flock camera, Palestinian genocide, endless war, climate change, etc. And because we are not explicitly mentioning the marginalized does not mean they're being excluded. If the marginalized are explicitly being excluded then we step in, For All or Bust.
Edit:
Shoutout to ChestRockwell for wording what I'm trying to say in a clear articulate way.
Being normal means stop assuming bad faith then arguing down some assumed point. I'm on y'all side too and if you're this eager to assume I'm not there'll be nobody on the left but yourself.
I think Trans rights should go bigger than sports and if we keep letting the right define what we talk about, the end all be all conversation will be just sports. I also vaguely remember hexbear dialog about competition is bad and sports are bad but that's neither here nor there. We should be the ones defining our own policies instead of reacting to policies being attributed onto us.
Not defending obama at all but we really do need to be normal.
who is "we"
Instead the direction should be healthcare for all including Trans adults and Trans children.
instead of what? who exactly is not advocating for that?
Normal is redirecting right wing cultural babble back on data centers, flock camera, Palestinian genocide, endless war, climate change, etc.
to you this is normal, to a lot of people these are fringe positions that they don't want to discuss / pick a side on.
i decided to not risk doing sports until cultural tides change because it might flare up on me and result in me being socially assassinated or fired if some transphobe really wants to try. this is mostly irrational but there are effects of just ignoring the flooding the zone the right is doing.
You don't actually need two people to have a discourse anymore. You imagine some argumentative judo move that everyone could do to redirect right-wing bigotry back to "normal" topics, but the right can and will and does just talk to itself about how much it hates any difference at all and have that reported on in corporate media as the public discourse. By not confronting their bigotry directly in favor of always redirecting to something else you allow it to fester and make it easier for them to set terms of argument regarding whatever marginalized group whose specific case you've folded into 'everyone'.
Good point. They're able to generate fodder out of thin air without even having a targeted person theyre talking about. That's why we say "thats not real/a thing but ___ is"
I feel we keep falling in their trap when the right has nothing to offer but discourse. This is a layup for our side
Your solution is to abandon a marginalized class to fend for themselves because they are an electoral nuisance. You lose all right to campaign on progressive values once you do this.
Please tell me where I said that. As my other comment said, be normal especially to people on your own side.
Ignoring culture war about trans kids in sports in favor of healthcare for all including trans kids and adults =/= abandoning the marginalized. We don't need the right to define what issues matter and we don't need to give them any attention either.
Conservatives are the ones who are initiating the culture war battles. Democrats already ignore it for the most part. A minority of the more left-leaning Dems will engage them on it and defend trans rights. In previous eras, the battleground was over gays and blacks. There was a time when being gay was "abnormal" and Democrats would have preferred them to stay silent and closeted (while still voting Blue of course).
We don't need the right to define what issues matter and we don't need to give them any attention either.
Ignoring their attacks means the right fully controls the narrative over trans issues.
Ignoring in the case I'm laying out means not using their definitions to define our own cause.
They say "bathrooms are for 1 sex only" we say public accessible bathrooms for everyone is a must.
They say "trans kids shouldn't play sports" we say abolish privatization in sports so it's more equitable for every child to play on any team they want.
The right takes our language and bastardizes it leaving us constantly having to react, we can and should do better.
"In favor of" means abandoning. Fuck all that shit.
Sorry you can't have healthcare, even trans inclusive healthcare. None of it unless we get 5 kids across the country in sports.
I'm sorry I think healthcare for all is greater than kids in sports.
Conceding to the right on trans issues actually gets us further from healthcare for all. You're not going to find the support you want by getting center right bigots on the team.
Step 1: Treat trans women as men
Step 2: Trans people get healthcare somehow
Did I say treat women as men? What a terrible thing to project onto me.
I said we shouldn't care about what they're saying about kids in sports and redirect the conversation back to something else that is maybe more serious(healthcare. A genocide).
Under your same example, if step 1 was treat women as women, we still wouldn't get healthcare. That's the culture thing I mean where we are not getting anything but morality stickers so we shouldn't fall for their framing tricks and keep the discussion targetted on something, public accessible bathrooms for all like mentioned. Abolishing for profit sports in general(very low priority) etc.
The core argument behind banning trans kids from sports is that trans women are men. You siding with the people making that argument is not meaningfully different from you outright agreeing with that argument. If you didn't want to get called out for saying something terrible, you shouldn't have said something terrible.
If you actually care about equality in sports, it should be obvious that capitalism is the problem. Imagine two kids competing in something. One was born to poor parents, so they're malnourished due to being denied access to sufficient food. Their school is underfunded so the sports program they participate in is lower quality with lower quality facilities. They have to work after school with all the money going towards struggling to survive in poverty, so they don't have time or energy to practice. Their gear is cheap crap that's barely holding together. The second kid was born into wealth. They have easy access to perfect nutrition, a personal trainer, and private coaches. Their school has a top of the line sports program, and they have top of the line gear. They only have to worry about school and their sport, so they have plenty of time and energy to practice. The difference between these two kids does not allow for real competition. Why are you harassing trans kids instead of attacking this real problem?
A political idealogy which requires bigotry as its step 1 will never allow for progress. If you can't stand up for something you deem less important, how can you possibly be trusted to stand up for something more important? If you've already established that you'll side with bigots at the first inconvenience, how can you be trusted not to on issues that will receive even greater pushback?
You keep harping on about these so called 5 trans kids, thinking that surrendering that issue would satisfy the right. It's just one angle of attack to dehumanize all trans people, and ultimately everyone who doesn't conform to their standard of "normal".
I do not thinking we should sacrifice trans children in sports to satisfy the right.
I'm saying because the right is so adament about culture wars, we get pulled into arguing against their position (even if we are right) when it's somethig that shouldn't be taking up all of our attention in the first place.
I only bought up trans kids in sports because another comment mentioned it as something a liberal tried to abandon and it was the first thing on my mind.
What you're saying appears to be that Trans Kids are a sacrifice you're willing to make to have your team win the popularity contest this year.
Healthcare for all is not something either party is willing to support under any circumstances, why are you pretending that if we just throw trans kids under the bus it'll suddenly become possible?
Normal is coded language for sacrifice black people and other marginalized groups for the sake of welcoming bigoted white people who don't want to be that reformed because they'll lose social standing with their friend group, but they think class solidarity sounds nice when they can't get a job.
Or, maybe "be normal" just means... be normal in the space you occupy.
Unless you're some idealist (hope you're not!), we recognize that there are no "norms" that transcend place/space/time. Thus, to "be normal" means to meet people at their level where they are. This doesn't mean to cede ground on the policies but instead message to the group you're in and meet them where they are. While some people might be beyond persuasion, for those who are not, it's about meeting them in a language/mode they understand. Homophobes or racists need healthcare too, after all. They also need welfare or other material support. Thus, when persuading, one emphasizes the issues that affect the audience. It would not be "normal" to go to some conservative rural event and emphasize trans rights the entire time just as it wouldn't be normal to go to a queer space and spend the entire time talking about how your policies will help small business owners or something (not that there aren't petite bourg queers).
I should note here, for emphasis, this isn't to say you shouldn't argue for trans issues/queer issues/marginalized people in those rural spaces or throw them under the bus. Instead, it is about framing the issue in a way that is effective for the audience and thus emphasizing what elements of your trans policy would be "normal" for them (i.e. bathroom policy as a simple extension of expected privacy rights versus the genital inspector).
Normal is not a transcendent normal that crosses places. It is contingent, and thus entirely how we have to approach others. You do not show up at your best friend's wedding in your leather daddy outfit unless it's the dress code. Does conforming to your friend's dress code somehow undermine who you are? The reverse is true too - if my friend's dress code is leather daddy (I'm not one), I'll still suit my vibe/outfit as close as possible TO the dress code. And in doing so, I am "normal" for the wedding even as I preserve my non-leather daddy inner self.
The same way one would suit a dress code to their own tastes/persona, so one would suit their message to the "normal" of any space. This doesn't undermine your self or throw others under the bus, it instead acknowledges the different things that every individual centers, and drawing them to our side with the things they center (without betraying principles) is what "be normal" is really about.
Struggle sessions about what "be normal" means as another great example of this contingency.
People who have been in organizing situations can very clearly see what this is. You can mask behind whatever you want it to be because be normal is loose language that can conform to whatever you want it to be, but this is clearly a branch from the woke 1 was really something radlib crowd and you're just falling for it.
Thank you so much for wording this so clear and articulate.
I'm certain I defined what normal means in my post. Please be normal especially to peopld on your side.
We can redefine normal ourselves we don't need to continuously let the other side steal and define language
Nah you're whitewashing language to create a narrative. I ain't falling for it. But it seems you do pretty easily.
We are talking about the word normal, please be serious.
Talking about taking the word normal so that it means focusing on issues impacting the people which gets more people on the working class on our side.
I know what it means. It's about sacrificing black people in hopes white prols realize their class position and join the movement. Im not willing to sacrifice any of my marginalized comrades and you shouldn't either or else you become them, not the other way around
I think taking nefarious views on somebody's takes is not normal. In fact it's weird to assume bad faith then ignore any other explanation that can expand your world view on this topic.
So be normal.
