newsRodriguez gives no date for vote despite pledging elections at UN
This is completely in line with the previous PSUV position. It's not even a concession. They have always maintained that they have free and fair elections. She is the rightful legal successor to Maduro, and she is promising to uphold the existing democratic norms of her country. That she isn't taking an outwardly hostile tone towards the nation which enjoys total military superiority over them during a diplomatic mission at the UN may come across as a betrayal to certain ultra-leftists in the US, but it would seem that the Chavistas in Venezuela do not share the same view.
A Lemmygrad comrade
Good luck!
The revolution was always in danger as long as they didn't have enough rockets and drones to shut down the Panama Canal tbh
I like that this is so vague that "democracy" could mean anything from Greek style, western style, Chinese style, Israel style, Soviet style, etc. But literally everyone is assuming western style based on nothing?
She has sold her nation out to the US, IMF, and World Bank. This effectively allows western vultures to steal labor and material wealth while demanding lower pay for workers and lower taxes under the guise of "foreign investment". Oh their glorius rebirth of being siphoned and exploited to appease Wall Street's appetite. China and BRICS are right there. She didn't have to fold to the enemy.
Venezuela does the same things china has done
China and BRICS are right there.
Which one is it? Are you pro China but anti Venezuela because Venezuela is doing what China does? You realize the IMF opened a new center in Shanghai just a year ago right? Obviously these organizations are who they are but to clutch pearls at Venezuela for being forced to deal with them due to the way the global economy is structured when almost every other nation also deals with them is very hypocritical.
be consistently against all the nations and organizations who participate or have the awareness to understand that in the reality of political organizing you often have to choose between a selection of mostly terrible options in an attempt to do the most right by your people. We can all lament the individual tactics and choices made and acknowledge that the situation is awful without blaming the victims forced by us imperialism to do these things.
Edit: also, Venezuela literally tried to join brics and was blocked by brazil, so your false premises yet again crumble under the weight of material reality. cHiNa aNd BrIcS aRe RiGhT tHeRe shut the fuck up about things you have idea about
based on nothing?
based on the guns pointed at the country and a bunch of murdered fishermen and others
You're saying that Rodriguez betrayed the revolution by being threatened? Again, you're just repeating the nothing.
no, i'm saying people are dooming about this because they've seen what is done to other countries at gunpoint. whether she's doing a betrayal or not is secondary to whether she has any choice in the matter at all, and i'll defer to public opinion in Venezuela.
It's very clear that she's an acting de facto comprador, whether she chose this willingly or is doing it an gunpoint is irrelevant to anyone but moralizers
Pretending like the stuff they are doing now at gun point is stuff they were going to do anyway just didn't get around to yet is way worse slander.
yeah nothing at all. There's no reason to believe that a certain nation has increased its influence and dominion over venezuela
Here we go again
"Venezuela has initiated a process of democratic transformation for its rebirth, an orderly, institutional, and verifiable process, to build a country that is freer for all, more prosperous, and more reconciled with itself," said Rodriguez.
Fucking traitorous animal is selling the country out to the bougies. This is the end of Chavismo, there is no other way to characterise what she is saying here. She certainly doesn't mean that the proletariat will be freer, she means the country will be freer for the bougies.
This is completely in line with the previous PSUV position. It's not even a concession. They have always maintained that they have free and fair elections. She is the rightful legal successor to Maduro, and she is promising to uphold the existing democratic norms of her country. That she isn't taking an outwardly hostile tone towards the nation which enjoys total military superiority over them during a diplomatic mission at the UN may come across as a betrayal to certain ultra-leftists in the US, but it would seem that the Chavistas in Venezuela do not share the same view.
From Lemmygrad
Anyone believing this nonsense still is genuinely fucking coping. Delcy is a rat handing over the country's resources to the US and laying the foundations for liberalism to take over the country and undo everything socialism has achieved.
kind of disgusting to call a global south socialist leader a "rat" for making concessions at gunpoint. i guess fuck lenin for brest-litovsk and nep, selling out to the germans
Personally, I try to view the Chavistas themselves, who the commune movement is supporting, and who is most actively opposing Delcy Rodriguez as my way of viewing the situation. I begin with the class struggle as it actively exists in Venezuela, with the PSUV in charge of what has never been a consolidated revolution. Class struggle is incredibly sharp in Venezuela, with a powerful bourgeoisie that at the moment stands in opposition to the PSUV, while the PSUV still holds support on the ground from the commune movement.
This, to me, spells the actions of the PSUV post-kidnapping as a survival tactic and strategic retreat to hopefully prevent a ground invasion. I do not have a clear-sighted view, but I do have more trust in the fact that on the ground, the commune movement supports the PSUV, while the bourgeoisie still opposes the PSUV. If the PSUV collapses and/or alienates the communes, then we will know that this strategic retreat was incorrect. For now, that moment is not here.
Venezuela is not socialist. It never has established a dictatorship of the proletariat. What it has is a progressive party and an incomplete revolution, one that at the moment most lives on in the commune movement. The PSUV plays a progressive role as long as it continues to have connection with that commune movement and help progress it, essentially forming dual power. This is what makes the Chavista revolution so unique, it's a combination of a reformist party needing to actually rely on revolutionary dual power structures to continue existing.
All she has done is promise elections at an undetermined point, which as others have said is consistent PSUV policy.
i completely agree with you. very good summary
Thanks, comrade! I also see this as a particularly interesting revolution because I expect it to have many lessons for the US if the DSA ever took power, which is relevant to me as someone organizing in the US. We know reformism is a dead-end, but what if groups were building dual power and established ties with the DSA? What should Marxist-Leninists do if the wave of DSA support continues, when we know it cannot establish socialism within the capitalist state apparatus?
The lessons from the Chavista revolution can help inform movement in the US. Obviously conditions are vastly different. There's no empire pressuring the US, and there's no dual-power movement either. But studying the Venezuelan experience with the sort of reform-revolution going on right now gives us a glimpse into what one potential future of organizing in the US Empire itself may look like.
Again, I'm not a reformist, nor am I advocating for the DSA.
yes its very inspiring to people in europe as well. LFI, melanchons party in france, is thinking of a similar strategy of using presidential power to create room for bigger mobilizations and dual power.
the party im is is pretty classically marxist-leninist, but we advocate for learning from all movements. and in the french 2027 presidential elections it has been a big topic of conversation.
Lenin didn't hand over the whole ass country.
::: spoiler If Anna Louise Strong is to be believed, they tried.
Across this iron ring the starving people of the new state sent appeal after appeal to all those governments which refused to deal with them but especially to President Wilson. Beginning on November 24, 1918, and repeating their query through Raymond Robins, head of the American Red Cross in Russia, and also by direct cables to the State Department, they offered to consider any peace terms whatever: recognition of debts, concessions of territory, control of mines and natural resources. Rather than deal in any way with Bolsheviks, Wilson and the Allied governments sitting in Versailles issued a call to all the “organized groups in Russia” to meet at the Principo Islands, a proposal which clearly presaged the dividing of Russia into spheres of influence after the style of China. The Bolsheviks were not invited, but they accepted; the other governments refused and the scheme fell through. There followed the famous trip of William Christian Bullitt to Moscow in March 1919 as President Wilson’s semi-official representative. The hard-pressed Soviet government was ready to agree to Bullitt’s proposal that it accept all financial obligations of all past Russian governments, and divide the territory of Russia among all those governments which should be in armed possession when the treaty should be signed. But the treaty was never signed; President Wilson refused to receive the report of his own envoy. Bolsheviks were made to realize that no peace can be had from the imperialist powers of earth by any backward nation. Not even the price of slavish submission buys peace for China; nor could the offer of territory and gold buy it for Russia.
https://comlib.encryptionin.space/epubs/this-soviet-world/ Chapter 8: The Struggle for Peace :::
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Critical support to president Wilson for fumbling to tear the USSR apart I guess.
read about what kind of things left-coms were saying about him then. maybe it gives some perspective
It sadly seems to be the consensus for a vocal cohort in the newsmega: https://hexbear.net/comment/7483074
If anyone says anything except that Delcy is doing right by Venzuela, just carrying on in the face of imperialism and doing what Maduro would have if he could have, they get labeled an idealist ultra who can't understand material analysis, or a doomer without any revolutionary optimism. I've lamented it in the past.
And look at the kind of responses this post got only a few hours ago: https://hexbear.net/post/9624864
their vitriol will only worsen as their cope becomes more disconnected
Ah yes, we are disconnected from things, when you can't even get what we are actually arguing correct.
You will set us up in a position we weren't arguing for and then declare victory if things go your way, despite the fact that you are basically just on some polymarket bullshit, where your pride in whatever vibes-based opinion you have formed is, for some reason, so much more important than the opinions of the people whose lives are actually on the line here, that you can completely outright dismiss them WITHOUT EVEN READING THEM.
Yeah, if we are coping, you are seething.
If the projection was any stronger you would be a movie theatre.
You don't even have a firm position you are arguing. You simultaneously argue that the revolution is strong, continuous, undefeated and this is only a momentary retreat - while also arguing that Venezuela cannot win a war or resist and has to give in. Those are contradictions. You are the one with the incoherent positions.
A socialist project that "must" give in to American demands and control of their economy is not "strong" or "undefeated" and ownership is not "momentary". It is an accelerating feedback loop that has destroyed almost every socialist project in history.
why must so many comrades be on cope like this?
Have you ever held power? Had any kind of actual responsibility? Or are you just a spectator in the power struggles of other people like every other western leftist? An audience to power and responsibility where politics basically just resembles fantasy sports?
It's not cope if you are actually listening to what real chavistas, people who are in the game and who this shit affects directly, are saying. Literally just shut up, stop complaining, and listen. It's not that difficult.
The reality is that the Venezuela issue is a litmus test for who on the left have ever politically organized and who is exclusively a leftist on the internet. Anyone who has actually spent years earnestly and sincerely struggling with the masses against our oppressors know that the task is arduous and you will often fail. The history of communism is mostly a history of failure, bad decisions, mistakes, tentative alliances and agreements with objectively bad people. Tactical retreats and even losses are the norm, not the exception. Survival of the project in the long term is the only path forward, and no one here who is criticizing delcy has even once out forward and idea of what could have been done differently to put Venezuela in a better situation than they are currently in. Only vaguely hand waiving and saying "resist." Like a liberal at a no kings rally. No strategy, no analysis, just empty headed critiques founded in a fictional reality completely detached from the material world
imagining the hexbear party line in 1991 on Gorbachev and Yeltsin. Ummm shut up and listen to the party you ultras! This is a momentary retreat to protect the soviets! If there really was a problem the soviets would revolt!
This isn't an argument.
Imagine Hexbear on China in 1982, communism is over, China will be capitalist in 5 years, Deng is an imperialist running dog.
See, I can do this game too.
Yeah but if you do it you'd win
Literally just shut up, stop complaining, and listen
Yes, that's the exact attitude I was referring to, what has turned the newsmega from once a great source into being completely unendurable. A clique of pollyannas and panglossians. "Shut up and stop complaining. Oh and listen to chavistas[sic], but really just listen to us, because we know exactly what all of them say because they're a monolith and agree with our analysis, and are all universally happy about how things have gone down in their country. What, you disagree? You must want them all to get shot and bombed, you doomer ultra!"
When did I say everything was fine? That things were going just dandy? Where have the chavistas ever said that? You wouldn't know because you clearly haven't read them or what they are saying about this. Actually cite my arguments. Actually cite them and their arguments. Quote anything that isn't some imaginary dialogue that only occured in your head. How is what you are doing anything other than spectator chants and chauvinism from the peanut gallery?
I would maybe take you even slightly more seriously if you didn't have this penchant for asinine literary comparisons as if because you reference Voltaire means that you are better than a liberal who references Harry Potter, and for putting words in my mouth.
those real chavistas had better be mobilizing because in spite of your "assurances" i have enough sense to see where the wind is blowing which isn't difficult it's true. it takes the thinnest fraction of a self saving maneuver for venzuela to go from this proclamation to gas station under a neoliberal puppet and no lack of experience disqualifies me from saying that out loud
I asked some science bro and he told me wind blows a lot of air and changes direction at random which is pretty fucked if you ask me
have enough sense to see where the wind is blowing
We have reached purely metaphysical thinking on the allegedly Marxist website. Too bad all these oracles and sages of the Internet aren't the scheming viziers of the people who actually have things to lose in this situation
stochastics has a physical basis. we've seen politicians like her before, and i'm either going to be pleasantly surprised or not surprised at all
You've seen a vice president of a revolutionary project become president after the president was kidnapped by a foreign government? What did that person do ? What are the relevant details that are comparable to this one ?
I'd say our lack of experience entirely disqualifies any of us from having any real kind of opinion on this. This is basic Maoist bullshit. We are getting all of our opinions in the situation through whatever journalists are willing and able to publish.
This is not real knowledge of a situation. This is a spectacle of a situation. We don't know where the wind is blowing, we can only get an abstract sense of it. There is nothing scientific about anything we are doing here.
Stop making predictions and proclamations and sit, wait and listen. This isn't sports.
I'd say our lack of experience entirely disqualifies any of us from having any real kind of opinion on this.
Then why the hell do you get to be the one to tell others to shut up and stop complaining? If none of us know, then neither do you.
If you really do think that literally all of us should just "shut up and listen" without pushing your own opinion (an insistence that everything happening is obviously great and for the best) as the only Correct and True Materialist Analysis, then you are in the minority of the clique that usually tells anyone concerned about what's happening in and with Venezuela that they're ignorant ultras, or worse.
an insistence that everything happening is obviously great and for the best
no one is saying that!! maybe try to actually listen
I am not the one making predictions! I am not claiming to know what is going on!
Don't just spout 'one true materialist' memes at me. That is absolutely reductive and reactionary. You aren't an ultra.
Look at what I have said on this topic elsewhere. This is a critical junction point for this government. We will have to see and wait for what happens. Not what is said, what actually happens. We cannot be proclaiming that the sky is falling and socialism is doomed because of a speech. Socialism is not made from public addresses.
It seems like the natural extension of existing problems in the community's ability to assess geopolitics that it would decay into standpoint epistemology but for Gorbachev.
It's sad, but all they have now is copium. Rodriguez, Machado... All the same shit.
chief, i know how it feels, but cut your losses, don't get bogged down in this godforsaken shit, we lost this one. there's no re-framing it, nothin good will come out of it
what are you calling "godforsaken shit" ? a country attempting socialism under the boot of US imperialism?
you know what i meant, we are in a post regarding a very specific event. i am commenting on that event. in the spirit of dialogue i will clarify what i meant; they attacked the state, the state lost, now the state answers to Marco rubio and the american's demand. whatever attempts toward socialism they were doing are no longer in the works. that is the ''godforsaken shit'', that we lost, there's no positive angle to be found. you're barking up the wrong tree if you think i like this
The commune movement in Venezuela is where the actual revolution is, it's essentially building dual power. Venezuela has never been socialist, and has never had a dictatorship of the proletariat. When you claim the battle is lost because the reformist party friendly to the revolutionary communes is forced to make dramatic concessions and retreats, you're ignoring the fundamental revolutionary process going on that is steadily growing to replace the old bourgeois state power in Venezuela.
The communes are the revolution. The communes are building dual power. The communes have not lost. The PSUV is not an active obstacle to the communes. Anyone that was expecting the PSUV to establish a dictatorship of the proletariat through reformism has a critical misunderstanding about the nature of the capitalist state and the necessity of smashing it and replacing it. It's more like if the Provisional Government was won by a social democratic group, and the Soviets had not yet built dual power to challenge its legitimacy.
thas fine Cowbee, hope you're right and good luck with all that
whatever attempts toward socialism they were doing are no longer in the works.
you seem very sure of that
that we lost, there's no positive angle to be found. you're barking up the wrong tree if you think i like this
what i think is that you and other commenters here are very quick to give up on socialist projects. declaring them "lost". lost to whom? being cannonfodder for the western left? the venezuelan communes have not declared the revolution to be lost and i think it is for them to decide when to completely split with the government, abandon all the gain since 1990 etc. and that would for sure be in the news.
my point is not "ah there is a positive spin to this". not everything has to be positive in a revolution! if you organise for more than a week you will encounter setbacks. its not all sunshine and roses.
they're not attempting it any more
are the communes dissolved? is all social spending suspended? is the PSUV not a dominant party anymore? Are chavistas systematically jailed?
hey maybe a hardliner will win
hey! U can have free elections, sure, but not that free!
Listen kiddo we can set the menu. You can choose between loud CIA, soft CIA, or just "not" CIA
The freer the markets, the freer the people.
Freer will keep the people in line.
Promises to install a western friendly stooge. your time has come!
How the fuck did Maduro pick her to be VP?
I’m sure they’ll totally not be rigged for whomever the US decides should win.
Woah who could've seen this coming
Can't wait for the Maria Machado / Juan Guaido ticket. 🤮
Machado is a loser who has lost the Mandate of Trump, so she's out.
Machado can't even go back to Venezuela...
