gender neutrule terminology
(midwest.social)
Chloé 🥕
196::: spoiler transcript Screenshot of a tweet by @feralhousepuppy: hey so you've been calling me "bro", "man", and "dude" a lot and it's really invalidating to my masculinity cause those are all gender neutral things you call trans women :/ :::
If you call a trans woman any of these things you are morally and legally obligated to give her $20 each time.
Fun fact: women tend to use dude differently to men. Causes quite a bit of distress to trans women until they work out the code. Guys use it as demonstrated above. Women use it more like a (non antagonist) mate. It's a gender neutral attention getter, softener and show of camaraderie
Fun fact, if you use friendly/camaraderie language when you ain't my friend or comrade I think you're fake and you call me words I don't like I'm certainly not your friend.
There's also a difference between masculine default and gender neutral.
I'm so sick of fake friendliness. I'm so sick of masculine default. I'm so fucking sick of people being disrespectful to the person in front of them, and acting like I'm the rude one for saying "Oh, please don't..."
Black men called each other brother and man because white men called them boy, white boys started calling everyone man (and dude and bro) in escalation, then women took it up as a reclamation.
Calling a girl dude is still patriarchy and misgendering; how somebody receives your words is more important than your obscure use case and it shouldn't be a reach to just not.
Am AFAB, can confirm. The whole argument over "dude," for example, has been difficult for me to adjust to because I use it gender-neutrally all the time. I've never had a cis-woman complain about me using it with/around them; no cis-woman has ever gotten offended or said to me, "I'm not a dude, I'm a woman," or anything of the sort. It's just ... understood differently?
But if there's a different usage pattern among AMABs, I can see how they might feel differently about it. Truth is, if I'm calling you "dude," it means you're cool with me - it's a gender-neutral term of endearment among women, having absolutely zero to do with one's gender or sex.
This discussion always centers around whether or not these are gender neutral terms in general. It always leaves out the fact that there are people who only use these terms for men and trans women.
The stoner who uses "dude" or "man" all the time, the leabian, I see them use it for cis women constantly, we have no problems. The bro bro who absolutely does not call cis women "dude" or "man", can fuck all they way off to the 7th jockstrap of hell.
THANK YOU. i felt like i was losing my mind seeing everyone else miss the point lol
Listen up my hoopy froods, when settling on inclusive gender neutral terms don’t forget your towel
i fucking hate being called bro (ignore my username its outdated)
I'm pretty sure you can change your display name on Lemmy.
update: using another client (jerboa) i managed to do it
my instance doesnt let me but it might be a bug
Not all clients support it tho :(
you can change how your display name is presented, it doesn't have to be your username.
I really wish inheritantly masculine words weren't always ending up the "gender neutral" defaults.
I can't help but feel like ever since being out over the last 2 years, friends are calling me "man" or "dude" in a neutral sense way more often than they ever did before despite them being supportive and it just feels too me like petting a cat in the wrong direction. I know I need to be more vocal in it making me uncomfortable but I've always tried to avoid confrontation so it's hard
Good Burger shoulda taught you we all dudes
If you're me, you can say, "sup, y'all"
For more context, this works when greeting one person or a group. If you need to specify that you're addressing the group, the plural of "y'all" is "all y'all".
If you’re me, you can say, “sup, y’all”
southern privilage of having informal plural "you"
I used to work with some proper manly-men; ex military, oil rig workers, lumber jacks etc. You get the picture.
The amount of times people get called “babe” and “sweet cheeks” etc. was dizzying - as was the constant vague alluding to the wanting of doing horrifically outlandish sexual stuff to each other.
Weird, but fun, vibe all around.
It's just dudes who are secure in their sexuality and masculinity. It's the insecure ones ruining it for everyone.
Did you work in the gay steel mill from the Simpsons?
thats just all the steel mills
Please trust when I say it's exceedingly normal in blue collar. Also, everyone doing those jokes is highly homophobic
I'm white collar and we make those jokes all the time
Not that I remember… which I assume I would.
Me again.
Just looked that up on the ‘tube. Lol.
It weren’t nothing like that; we had a far far lower moustache per man ratio.
Isn't the "alluding of wanting sexual stuff" just homophobia? Was anyone of them actually gay? Would they accept an openly gay person in their manly group? For me it sounds like "guys, look, I'm gay! how degrading and self-deprecating of me. can you imagine anyone here actually being gay? hilarious!". I heard the same things from military friends and they are the most right-wing people I know. I have hard time believing their "gay jokes" are just innocent teasing. But I don't know, maybe?
Yeah - I hear what you’re saying but it was probably closer to “gay chicken” rather than anything else.
You’d bend down for the hundredth time that day to pick up something and you just hear a distant “mmmhmm” or an “oh yeah, baby”
One guy, if I hadn’t worked with him for a while, used to hug me, sniff me aggressively and then, whilst maintaining eye contact, tell me that he’d missed my smell. And then kiss me on the forehead.
One (openly) gay guy worked, tangentially, with us and came to a works do one year. He declared, in the first pub, that he was gonna turn one of us before the end of the night. I’m not sure if he succeeded… but he stayed the course of the night and seemed to enjoy himself.
Machismo is evolving. Slowly, but its happening!
I’ve found that “homie” works well
"Guys" and "dude" are gender neutral in my book.
Ask a straight man if he fucks guys or dudes and see how gender neutral those terms are
"Dude" is a hill I'll die on. We already tried "dudette" in the 80s/90s. It was pretty universally hated. Dude was established as the preferred gender neutral term in the late 90s/early 00s at the great council of high school students.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=0el-KGXGaTc
In Spanish we just say "you". It's really terrible in Arabic where you have feminine and masculine "you".
And then gender every other word.
It’s really terrible in Arabic where you have feminine and masculine “you”.
Apparently some Arabic-speaking enbys use the dual form أنتما but as most dialects have lost dual inflections, that's not really practical in day-to-day speech.
Hack Túo o Hack Túa?
I really wish there was a word that was as useful as "dude" but without the gender connotation.
I tried swapping to "fam" and "cuz" but those felt appropriated, I tried "gamer" and "chat" but those felt irony-poisoned, "Sis" and "girl" feel performative. So "dude" it shall be until someone tells me it's bad, and then they get no objective article at all.
Dude actually is gender neutral
Source: I am a legally ordained priest of the Church of Dudeism. Not sarcasm.
Comrade?
I mentioned "cat" elsewhere but this morning I remember Mr. Rogers called us all "neighbor" and I think it could work.
just gonna end up sounding like ned flanders. Not the worst thing to come of ass tho, if you look past the religous dogma. Always friendly, and he has a great ass
Dudette! Though I honestly stick with dude, i use dudette only if it bothers them;
personally a fan of comrade, friend or pal.
but i also really kinda do use guy and dude gender neutrally. Accidentally have called everyone i know dude at some point. P sure i called my mom dude several timea.
but also aware some people dont like that so i makr a point of asking if know/suspect theyve a non cis gender identity, or correct as needed if asked.
people only really take it badly if its the first time meeting and theres doubt to ones priorities. People are generally very forgiving if you establish intent and willingness to respect each other in my experience
I think the australians have this figured out with "mate"
Nah, mate is as gendered as dude. Like sure some woman won’t mind, but it’s mostly men being called mate by other men.
No straight man is going to be like “I had sex with my mate” when talking about say a fwb.
Nah, women can easily be mates, it's not a gendered term at all any more.
been using “m8” for too long, that I don't think I’m call’em “benefits.” @That point: “tis my partner[s]” or “oh em? that's ma spotter/coach.”
Mate doesn't pluralise well though, 'I'm going out with my mates' is fine but 'hi mates' sounds wrong. Also a lot of it is in the delivery, calling someone 'mate' can be anything from friendly to neutral to hostile depending on the tone and the words which precede it.
Of course "Hi mates!" feels wrong, it needs to be either "g'day mates" or "ahoy mateys" or "oy mates"...
Sorry.
Btw. you have the same "problem" (imho, feature) of tone determining level of friendliness with dude, dude. And partly even with bro, though bro feels harder to turn unfriendly when adressing someone.
For me, "Hi mates" or "oy mates" sounds completely okay, but I'm a non-native speaker.
add.:
- buddy/bub
- homeslice
- boo
- yo
- heya
- yosh
I mean the golden rule with how you speak about people is really just to listen to what people tell you about what makes them feel respected
So feel free to use dude gender neutrally if thats how you speak, and if someone says they don't feel good in it, stop. If youre worried it might not feel great for someone you can always just say you're used to using it gender neutrally and ask 🤷🏻♂️
"cunt" kinda works
I don't like dude as gender neutral and don't think I ever will. I'll stick with "fam," "friend," and "homie" (then again, I am Hispanic, so that might not work for everyone)
let’s go for: hello beings
I too am entering the conversation. Hello fellow resident of Earth.
hello dear feathercrown being, user of the earthwide digital interwebs, you hereby might feel officially welcomed
I full use hello beings when my brain is unsure what to call everyone. I also like all y'all.
Tovarășe! Să trăiți!
"howdy folks 🤠"
"dude" always felt gender neutral to me (though do note English is my fourth language...).
And if you look at the etymology of the word, gender neutrality makes some sense.
It started out as slang in the late 1800s mocking "hyper-fashionable young urban men".
Then the early 20th century it transformed to describe tourists from the East Coast on the Western side of the country (see "dude ranches").
And then in the 60-70s it transformed thanks to surfer slang, back to being male oriented.
I'd say if you're uncomfortable with the "dude" form of the term... use "dood" instead. Or even "d00d" if you're feeling l33t h4xx0r.
Gendered terms actually very often have really weird etymologies. You'd be surprised how many words for women used to refer to children of any gender (which could be a whole discussion by itself).
So in your examples, it went from making fun of a type of men, to referring to the overwhelmingly-male owners of hobby ranches, to referring to male surfers.
When exactly was it ever gender neutral?
No...
You got the second part wrong. It wasn't the "overwhelmingly male owners of hobby ranches" that were called dudes, but, if you read my comment again, you'll notice I specifically said the UNGENDERED tourists hailing from the east coast - primarily city folk - visiting rural western areas, ranches.
The 80s and 90s skater culture. We're all dudes https://youtu.be/iKYXmjfQY4U
I like folks but it's pleural so only works for groups.
Folks is plural, neighbor.
Pleural refers to the lungs and the space that holds them, like "pleural effusions" and "pleurisy."
Damn autocorrect. Ta.
I prefer homie
just say "baby".
bae 2
hmm i can see it but that one would be more difficult to read when you aren't used to it.
when saying it. it's a very open-mouthed sound so peeps will probably think they didn't understand you right, while baby has a rather distinct and complete-feeling kinda sound i think.
EDIT: it would sound nice tho once peeps know you use that sound-word for everyone >v<
ya, “bae” in very district.
Thanks, baby! :D
hmnawawwaw---- yea see, like, that works maybe and when it does it usually makes the recipient excited which is a wonderful bonus ~
Always thought mate was fantastic but it sounds weird when Americans use it
Well, I'm Canadian, but I assure you it doesn't sound any better coming from us.
America should refer to the continent anyway
Imo new words should be created for these things. Like how about zude ?
"what up cuh"
Me omw to commit auditory blackface to avoid using a mostly gender-neutral term gender neutrally
I subscribe to the good burger use of dude.
yeah no "dudette" is an abomination of linguistics and I refuse to entertain it, and anyone who does should be met with derision.
We are all dudes on this blursed world. 🙏
It's odd that the gender "neutral" terms are always the masculine ones
Pretty common in a lot of "gendered" languages actually.
Certainly the case in every language English is related to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male-as-norm_principle
It's deliberate, for all the same reasons across all of history.
It's why I use terms that (I assume) are genuinely like "folks" and "peeps" and "comrade" etc.
Become ungovernable.
Make all words genderless.
Call men "chika".
Call women "brother".
Call your girl cat "bubba"
Call your boy cat "pretty kitty"
No gender = no gender conformity = better world
omg this is pretty cool
Don't forget "cats"
Everybody wants to be a cat 🎶
Oh cool cats, I dig it. That's cool.
Sorry liberals, there are only two genders: CATS and DOGS
Pussies and bitches!?!?
I’m sorry but I HATE folks. I’m down with virtually all other gender neutral terms, but I psychologically can’t uncouple ‘folks’ from pseudo-homespun charm put on by people who are sleazebags for various reasons. Anything but folks, I beg (general) you
I just hear the word in Davey's voice from Adventure Time and it has completely taken the term over. I can't even say folks without impersonating Davey anymore.
Neighbor?
I use folks all the time!
...but i'm also a server at waffle house, so I guess I am using southern culture and folksy charm to sell you waffles and coffee. It's a soulless existence, I know, but at least I have my cold, hard cash tips to keep me warm at night.
I use the word folks regularly :(
That makes me sad
Don’t let one person’s pet peeves determine your language, even if they’re my pet peeves!
It makes me sad that it made you sad so to correct this I'll go out of my way to use folks from time to time
Yay
I love “folks”! It makes me think of folklore and looney tunes.
Another fine word ruined by the US.
It comes from the German "volks" (literally "people"), so I just think of it like that. "What's up people?" doesn't sound strange, does it?
Well no, it doesn't, because it's a different word. Plenty of words have similar meanings or origins while having very different connotations from each other. See for example the whole [saxon? norman? whatever] vs french root thing in english, where words with identical meanings but different root languages came to have different connotations (worker vs laborer) or even different meanings (cow vs beef).
Another example: cavalier vs caballero. Cavalier comes from the French word for knight, and that's caballero in Spanish, but the meaning is completely different. One is arrogant, one is noble (the good kind, yeah I do get how they are related and where and why the meanings shifted).
So what is the distinction? You went on for a while there and kinda forgot that part.
I only use it to refer to my "parents" cuz saying parents otherwise makes me feel like I'm in grade school again or some shit. Otherwise to refer to others as folks feels weird to me.
I think using "deliberate" to refer to something that's as collective and reactive as societal trends in language usage is misleading. The amount of personal agency involved, except in rare cases of people intentionally trying to cause a cultural shift, is pretty minimal.
Also you got me curious-- "peeps" comes directly from "people" as you might expect, and "folks" and "comrade" actually originally originate as terms referring to (among other usages) military groups. So I would say they are indeed gender-neutral, even in origin, unless you count gendered expectations of the military which I'm not sure carried over to later, more general usages.
I actually spent a few minutes trying to think of a better word than "deliberate" but couldn't, "not accidental" might have been a better choice.
It's weird when we feminise a word like dude (that didn't have gender and wasn't about people) by adding a diminutive suffix.
I would say dude wasn't gendered until dudette was coined, and probably isn't gendered where dudette doesn't have currency
The one that gets me is 'bud' I had a roommate that would all ways say things like 'yeah bud. that's because ****' when explaining anything and I had to put a firm stop to it. It was so patronizing.
You're not a bud. You're fully bloomed.
I like bud, but don't like being patronized.
Makes me think of the, "I'm not your pal, buddy!" Canadians skit from South Park
Were they from Maine or Michigan by any chance?
Kansas
i like being called bud cuz it makes me feel small.
I have officially lost complete connection with what the kids are talking about these days
