Queer discourse rule
(midwest.social)
DaGeek247
196Bisexual: attracted to two or more genders and are autumn or winter coloring.
Pansexual: attracted to more than one gender, and are a spring or summer.
The difference is that they’re both getting fucked over and not in the sexy way…
Wait that’s not a difference
Bisexuals think transfolks are their gender and know what pan means, pansexuals don't exist because they're fucking LYING if they say they find the Xcgutrian gender sexy.
You're only pansexual if you're from the Panne region of France, otherwise you're just sparkling bisexual.
Panne is in Belgium.
Don't do this. That joke is tiresome. Please stop.
Is your boredom from the Tirésomme region? Or you're just sparkling bored?
Typical lemmyworld...
I'd say the only meaningful distinction is that some people make up a definition "bi" could have had but never did, and then use "pan" in opposition to that 😛
But more honestly I asked my sister why she identifies as pan rather than bi, and her answer was that bi attracted the wrong people and pan attracted the right people 😉
Bisexuals have a cooler flag, pretty sure that's the only difference. Otherwise they're both labels that fail to adequately describe the infinitely personal and variable elements of human attraction and sexuality. Use whichever one feels right. I flip between bi and pan when labeling myself but omnisexual probably "fits" the best
Isn't that just changing it from the Greek pan prefix to Latin omni prefix, both meaning all?
Omnisexuality is differentiated from bi/pan in recognizing the role of gender in attraction, and expresses a.preference for certain genders over others. For example, I'm mostly attracted to fem, queer, or androgynous presenting people, and not particularly drawn to masc people. I am attracted to some men (amab or.afab), but not to the same degree as I am with other gender expressions
Problem: There are 2 competing labels for universal attraction
Solution: "Omnisexual should represent universal attraction"
Problem: there are 3 competing labels for universal attraction
Pish pish! The Pan flag is amazing! It’s like a sunset ice cream Sunday!
Haha, to each their own!
Oh look what you've done now. You've made it worse. Omnisexual? Now there's three terms confuddling the concept.
Behold the magnificence and terror of my eldritch, unknowable sexuality!
Every definition I have heard for pansexuality or similar that defines the term in contrast to bisexuality reads like slander to my ears.
Bisexuality is a broad category, and it was never exclusionary. Bisexuals can be attracted to trans people, and enbies, and those with or without gendered presentations, but critically they don't have to be. Its a category not a checklist.
Bisexuality is broad. Other terms are more specific, and there is some amount of overlap.
As a trans woman, I am deeply opposed to the idea, implied by many definitions, that the only people who can find me attractive are those with a specific trans inclusive sexual orientation. Its both invalidating, and completely untrue in reality.
The definitions I've known are that bisexuality is that you are attracted to all body types and pansexuality is that you are attracted to people.
So, one is more physical and the other is more social, but there's no slander to either, no?
I for example wouldn't say ace biromantic, I'd define it as ace panromantic since bi has more of a physical vibe. Idk, it's not so deep.
Yeah, the only way pansexual makes sense, to me at least, is if bisexual excludes feminine presenting men and masculine presenting women, but I don't see why it should. I feel like pan was just created either to make certain people feel like they're being more inclusive than just normal bi people, or to make bi people feel like they're being exclusive.
A lot of the gender and sexual orientation language of recent times is good and removes ambiguity. Some of it though, like pan, feels like people just treating it as a contest.
As a trans person and a pansexual, I would describe it like this:
I don't have a type. I don't even necessarily tend to find people attractive until I get to know them a bit. The people I find "hot" aren't tall people or feminine people or strong people or anything like that, instead I think clothing choices that tell me something about you and give me a feel for who you are as a person are hot.
If i'm attracted to you, I will find myself attracted to your body, rgardlesss of what your body happens to be like. You could literally be a glob of goo or an alien or a talking rock, if I like you I'll start thinking you're hot.
If you're thinking "isn't that demisexual"? then you're halfway there - i'm not ace. I do think people are hot when I pass them on the street, except what i'm attracted to is their "vibe" rather than anything about their physical form.
Naturally, pansexual is a subset of bisexual - i'm also proud to be bi and I use that label frequently. And yes both bi and pan are trans-inclusive.
You wrote off demi too fast. When you say you find people passing with a good vibe hot, are we saying aroused, or are we saying "Ah, yes, quite the fuckable one, that". Because there's a third option and bi or pan only cover one while demi covers two.
As a trans woman, I am deeply opposed to the idea, implied by many definitions, that the only people who can find me attractive are those with a specific trans inclusive sexual orientation. Its both invalidating, and completely untrue in reality.
This. Trans women are women. As a bisexual woman, I am attracted to women.
Trans people are also included in the bisexual manifesto, written in 1990
In fact, don't assume that there are only two genders.
The way I always understood it was bisexual = attraction to your gender and other genders
and pansexual = attraction regardless of gender
now, functionally speaking, there is no distinction, but in terms of experience, I always identified more with pansexual than bisexual, as someone's gender was just never something I took into account when determining my attraction.
I often to use both, as I consider pansexual to be a sub-distinction of bisexual.
That being said I recognize there is no consensus on the distinction in the community so I usually go with bi for ease.
I've always understood it as pansexual being attracted to personalities and bisexual being attracted to physical attributes
I knew that was from Anything That Moves before I got past the first sentence lol
absolutely, and therefore i like the def of HalfSalesman. It nicely distinguishes between pan and bi, whilst avoiding any dated anti-trans ideas.
I would like to hear that definition if you have it on hand
it’s in this comment section: https://vger.to/lemmy.world/comment/25858715
Pansexual: Attracted to people regardless of gender characteristics.
"Pan" because gender is functionally irrelevant. Any and all genders accepted because it doesn't matter.
Bisexual: Attracted to multiple genders specifically because of their gender characteristics.
"Bi" in the sense of being "bi-directional" in attraction, usually attracted to specific gender traits and as a result not all genders, just more than one.
For instance, I'm finsexual, which is a subcategory of bisexual because it describes specific gender elements that I am attracted to but is not a sub category of pansexual as a result.
Ok yeah that makes sense. The way I’ve conceptualized it is that pan is attracted to all genders or to people regardless of gender and bi is attracted to two or more genders. I think the way that commenter phrased it is a great way to think about it
I tell straight people I'm bi, i tell queer people I'm pan.
That way, you see, ha ha, I get the best of both worlds
But then you’re missing out on all that bottom fun!
God. Always that one guy….
I learned what bi/pan was from a random discord user back in 2016 and I still think its the best description
Bi: Sexually attracted to looks, personality can obv play a big part/be a deciding factor but your main attraction comes from how physically attractive you think they are
Pan: Sexually attracted to personality, looks can obv play a big part/be the deciding factor but your main attraction is how much you like their personality
Again... Not dogging on you, because you nuanced it, but 99% of times, that definition is used to make bisexuals look shallow. The parent comment was right, there's no good reason to have two, except that the creator wanted to feel special and unique.
No no no. Hi it's me the parent commenter. I did not say that. There is reason to have both terms. Please don't put words in my mouth.
That definition does exemplify my point about definitions reading as slander to bisexuals, as that definition does imply bisexuals are shallow, but that does not mean pansexuality isn't a valid or useful term. The problem is trying to make a definition that is strict and draws a fine line between bisexuals and pansexuals. That cannot be done.
This is a grey area. Bisexuality is a diverse spectrum. The terms need to be a little fuzzy with some overlap. And that's fine. The real world doesn't fit neatly into the boxes we try to make for it.
Its good we have both the terms bisexual and pansexual. Its a very good thing we have words to communicate some of the many nuances that exist.
All heterosexuals and homosexuals care about physical traits, often regarding a genitalia.
It's not about being shallow, when 90%+(?) of the population shares that commonality.
I consider myself a panromantic, heterosexual non-binary person.
Sure personality matters a lot to me, but I can't sexually engage with a penis. It's just how it goes.
Is it shallow to want to fuck someone because their hot? Isnt that literally the societal norm? The majority of interaction ive had by far are people with sexual attraction on looks that ive personally just never been able to relate too. Thats why I think there needs to be a distinction for those of us who dont feel that sexual attraction even if their aesthetic appearance is something we would be sexually atteacted too after being attracted to their personality
Although... Thinking about it that might fit under demisexual, but then you cant specify the gender, so demi-bisexual? Honestly maybe pansexual should just be the pretty name for demi-bisexual although I think others using pansexual would say its different from demi, or maybe omni would say their more demi-bisexual. Idk im definitely with you that there are too many labels, but I think sexual atteaction between physical and closeness/personality deserve to have a distinction
Oooooh, so THAT'S what was growing in my sex cave
Oh my...
Bisexuals that grow from the ceiling are called “bicicles”
For some reason this reminded me of U-nicycle.
A unicycle for two? What would you even call that?!
I thought they were bilagmites.
People who say they are not attracted to trans women are absurd. It is like saying "I am not attracted to sisters of friends." Being unattracted is different than consciously deciding you shouldn't be.
🚲-sexual
🍳-sexual
personally i'm trainsexual
Pansexual: Attracted to people regardless of gender characteristics.
"Pan" because gender is functionally irrelevant. Any and all genders accepted because it doesn't matter.
Bisexual: Attracted to multiple genders specifically because of their gender characteristics.
"Bi" in the sense of being "bi-directional" in attraction, usually attracted to specific gender traits and as a result not all genders, just more than one.
For instance, I'm finsexual, which is a subcategory of bisexual because it describes specific gender elements that I am attracted to but is not a sub category of pansexual as a result.
I know I'm probably getting downvoted to hell for this. I think calling yourself "finsexual" does nothing to help you find a partner. Why do you even need that label? The obsession with applying increasingly specific labels to people doesn't feel healthy. In reality, you meet people, and you like someone you meet, romantically and/or sexually and/or socially, or you don't. These specific types of labels are only for people's imaginary future partners and seem to be an attempt at having a modicum of control in a world that's entirely uncertain and ambiguous
This is why i consider myself Bi, I’m attracted to femininity regardless of gender
For instance, I'm finsexual, which is a subcategory of bisexual because it describes specific gender elements that I am attracted to but is not a sub category of pansexual as a result.
I don't know why but this is making me feel my age. I feel like I mentally just patted down different pockets across my mind like an old man, looking for a pamphlet or flow chart that I know I don't have but desperately need.
The autism is compelling me to make a laminated pocket sized booklet with an updated chart of all gender, sexual orientation, and flag colors. But I also feel being spotted in public using the LGBTQ Pokedex might be faux pas?
You dont have to know them all. Its just a comfort to people to have a label when you can't otherwise communicate your experience :) (and in some cases it makes you feel less alone and weird for relating to people in a way you dont see anyone else experiencing)
And there are a lot of ways to experience sexuality and attraction (or to not experience it), so there are a lot of labels! But you dont need to know all of them
You can always ask if someone uses a label you dont know and you'd like to know (eg "oh, ive not heard that label before. What does it mean to you?") and as long as you're being friendly people usually take comfort in seeing someone interested in understanding them. But unless you're in community with someone and want to understand their identity, its not neccesary to really know the various labels, nevermind have a complete list and know all of them by heart
Sending love from my corner of the world to yours ☺️ (signed, a person who's maybe gray-ace :)
This is a really sweet comment <3
I'm glad you think so ☺️☺️
It's tough because the language has evolved relatively rapidly over the past few decades, and is still evolving quite rapidly. Definitions emerge and compete for relevancy (like the atrocious "Bi means you aren't attracted to trans people" strain that has popped up in this thread) and they can contradict or confuse with each other. It has been my experience that it's harder to absorb vocabulary as I get older, so I think I know what you mean. I've stopped trying to reach a comprehensive understanding, I just try to use the language that helps and respects people and not the language that harms and demeans people as best I can.
Yeah, I feel like past 35 it's harder to keep up with trending vernacular. I just try my best to be respectful. I think the autism has kinda trained me to use gender neutral pronouns and to avoid assuming sexual orientation anyways. I've always had a hard time distinguishing gender unless it's blatantly obvious someone is presenting as masculine or feminine.
Nah, I looked it up because its my specific type of attraction and its easier to tell someone I'm finsexual and assume they'll look it up or ask me to explain what that is. Rather than up front explaining in detail what my specific sexual interests are which might be a tad forward...
So ......what you're saying is there will be high demand for my LGBTQ Pokedex? I need to file a copyright real quick.
Please explain your sexual interests entirely through allegory without using explicit vocabulary generally accepted to be sexual in connotation. Thank you.
Pansexuals loving pans 🤝 finsexuals loving fish
Tbh I’ve always considered myself pansexual just because I am attracted to what I’m attracted to, no guardrails or borders. I usually view these terms as more like shackles than support. I suppose 99% of the time I could be considered finsexual aside from the stray guy. Usually I just explain pansexuality to my boomer family as my sexuality is whatever gets me horny and can give moral enthusiastic consent. Thats what it means to me at least. I don’t overthink it beyond that.
I like these definitions. But i feel like if i call myself bi, it misleads people who dont know this definition.
This is why I prefer "queer" personally, because why should I have to explain my sexuality to anyone. I'll know what I like when the time comes and that has expanded and contracted over the years. There is no specific line I feel like I need to use as a definition. To me drawing a line just limits things and misleads others. Language is imperfect and sexuality is complex.
I also most often use queer to define my sexuality to others (as in my Lemmy bio), but consider myself bisexual and refer to myself as such when asked directly or in conversation with queer friends.
Honestly, I think I like these definitions best. Just2look is also probably correct about a lot of people too though.
Yeah the Bisexual flag is fucking cool.
As a bisexual girlie, would someone let me know what the true difference is when it's figured out??
Honestly it seems like a generational divide between the two labels.
I've heard a ton of different definitions, but honestly I think people just pick the label they like better and there isn't a functional difference. I identify as bisexual because the flag is better haha.
bi is also one character less to type
Say you're a Linux user without saying you're a Linux user
Efficiency is important
I identify as bisexual because the flag
vexilosexual
The bisexual flag is SO much better. You get it haha
I identify as bisexual because the flag is better
this.
I used to feel the same about the flag, but at some point it grew on me
...along with 2014 techno music, osu, sparkledogs and shiny glass like UIs. Dunno if it's connected
I am convinced that they are the same thing and the only difference is the label itself. Any definitions I've seen are either equivalent, or denigrating to one of the labels and unrepresentative of how many people use them. Regardless of the history, trying to hammer down that one must be used over the other is a waste of time.
Bi here. Generally, attracted to men and women for the characteristics they have.
Pan is more that they’re attracted to people regardless of their sex. Like, it doesn’t really play into it.
I'm gen z and consider myself pan because the flag colors look like an ocean sunset and yummy ice cream. And also because gender is irrelevant to me in regards to attraction.
I respect choosing the label because of the flag haha
That actually makes me appreciate the pan flag more! It does kinda look like an ocean sunset :)
This is transphobic because it insinuates that trans people are some third gender rather than their actual gender. There is nothing about bisexuality or the "bi" prefix that would imply that bi people are only attracted to cis people unless you believe that trans and cis people are separate genders.
Nonbinary people, on the other hand, I can see how "bi means two" can be conflated to mean bisexuals can't be attracted to nonbinary people although I think that ignores the history of the term bisexual, as well as ignores the reality of nonbinary genders, i.e. you can't necessarily tell someone is nonbinary by looking at them. I think when people say they're "not attracted to nonbinary people" if they're not bigoted they likely mean something like not being attracted to androgyny, but not all nonbinary people present androgynously.
Not all trans people pass, and some trans people don’t exhibit their gender in a way someone else would like.
Some do pass. How would those people who think they aren't attracted to trans people even know until clothes come off? And even then, they might not be able to tell if a person is trans, cis, or intersex.
It's like when people say they aren't attracted to bisexual men. It's personal preference rooted in bigotry, even if they're not conscious of it.
Because the only trans people they personally know are ones they aren’t attracted to?
That doesn't mean they won't be attracted to any and all trans people.
There's nothing different about a bisexual man and a straight man when it comes to dating. If someone doesn't like bisexual men because bisexual men are also attracted to men, that is a preference rooted in homophobia.
That has nothing to do with being bisexual or not though. I might not be into bodybuilders "exhibiting their masculinity" by being absurdly jacked, but that doesn't make me not bisexual. I'm just not attracted to that particular gender presentation.
I think when people say "I'm not attracted to trans people" they have a particular idea of a trans person in their head, but plenty of trans people pass and some go "stealth". "We can always tell" is patently false. I suppose I can imagine a person who is so caught up in gender who would be turned off if they found out someone is trans, but I find it difficult to imagine anyone not asexual who wouldn't find some trans person initially attractive, at least post-op.
I agree with your last point though. At this point I've mostly given up on pansexual/bisexual and just call myself queer.
At this point I’ve mostly given up on pansexual/bisexual and just call myself queer.
I really like that the LGBT+ community has rallied around reclaiming the word "queer".
That makes me hesitant to ever identify as bisexual though and honestly that makes me really sad. I've become quite attached to bisexuality as a part of my identity and adhere to the definition @TwiddleTwaddle@lemmy.blahaj.zone used here:
the bi part of bisexual refers to both homosexual (same gender) and heterosexual (different gender) so nobody’s left out. I guess an argument could be made that an agender person might not fit under either umbrella, but i would still consider agender to be either same gender (if the bisexual person is also agender) or different gender (if the bisexual person is not agender).
I would just hate to signal to anyone not cis that I'm rejecting them based on my own identity.
Edit: Ugh you? Yeah I'm not going to go with your definition of anything with comments like these in your history
I like interacting with butch (not sure if that term is still in vogue, havent had the courage to ask) lesbians, they're never as bitter as the fems.
I think that distinction just grew up with the current trend of trans-exclusion. I identify as bi and my bi club is explicitly inclusive of trans and NB folk. The transphobes will have to pry the ol' pink and blue from my cold dead sexy bisexual hands.
The transphobes will have to pry the ol’ pink and blue from my cold dead sexy bisexual hands.
Hell yeah!
All of this is just retroactive attempts to delineate the two labels after the concept of being transgender started to become understood by a wider portion of the public (and the queer community, for that matter). Don't let faux-academic definitions define your identity. If "bisexual" feels like it fits but gender-nonconforming, agender, androgynous-presenting, and/or genderfluid people are also your thing, that's entirely fine.
(Edit: and it doesn't in any way invalidate other people's self-labeling when they categorize it differently to you. Labels are only there to simplify communication of ideas. They're not a sports team.)
<3
I would just hate to signal to anyone not cis that I’m rejecting them based on my own identity.
That would imply being anything other than pansexual is wrong and discriminatory, period.
It's worth stressing that it's perfectly fine to reject someone as a potential partner for any reason or even for no reason at all. For example if you find white women more attractive than black women, I don't think it makes you racist if that's just about attraction, not respect.
I would hate to signal it because I am personally attracted to cis and trans people, but still like to identify as bisexual. That's all :)
Yeah, you're definitely not proving me wrong on that.
You have no idea if I'm butch or fem.
You mean like how you have no idea if I'm a man or a woman? Funny how it's one set of rules for you and another for me.
Edit: To clarify, this isn't a "You can't define what a woman is" thing, it's a "this user loves to make assumptions about me and is mad when I do the same" thing.
It's bigoted as fuck to assert that all butch lesbians are cool and all fem lesbians are bitter.
I never said that. I said all the ones I encountered have been that way. There's probably loads of fem lesbians that are cool, that don't make their issues (or lack thereof) my problem. I've probably talked to a few that didn't even feel the need to bring up their sexuality.
Edit: As always, you're jumping the gun and assuming my beliefs and positions so you have a punching bag.
who assumed that you are a man?
My personaly definition is:
bi is attracted to people of multiple genders (could be all or could be limited to specific ones)
Pan is attracted to people regardless of gender entirely. Gender simply isnt a factor when it comes to attraction.
I personally am far more in the Pan side of things but I rep the Bi flag because its much much better.
I think the most reasonable definition is that bi means you are into either and pan means you don't care. So bi means you have two "prototypes" you're into, one male and one female, and pan means your "prototype" is not gendered. Having a gendered prototype doesn't mean it excludes trans people. A trans person can be close enough to either or both, depending on their state of transition and your focus. I hope I'm making sense.
I like that a lot :)
How willing are you to date an 𒀭𒀀𒉣𒈾?
If you're, welcome panie.
If you'rent, you're still bi.
At this point I just think they're different names for the same thing.
Can confirm. Am pan. Am also stuck on the ceiling
Adding to the flame war: it’s not even clear if it is about sex or gender for both
Can confirm.
Easy: are they exceedingly attracted to a loaf of bread?
Or to cast-iron skillets?
but what happens when the bisexual reaches the ceiling or the pansexual reaches the ground
I thought bi was preferring both cis and/or trans males and females, while pan was cis or trans male/female as well as anyone presenting non binary. Like a true bisexual would not be into someone non-binary, while a pansexual would consider a non binary person as a partner.
You can be monogamous and also be pansexual. You can be bi, but also be polyamorous.
And here I've always heard that bisexual means the attraction to your own/same gender and attraction to opposite/different genders, so that would include non-binary folk.
I love how both of us go down voted, but there is no discourse telling us how we are wrong, how we misinterpreted things. I spent some more time researching and the other thing that comes up is pansexual people are gender blind in terms of attraction, so it's a person by person basis when determining attraction. Any pansexual and or bisexual people want to weigh in and share their experiences.
I am a woman that is attracted to cis females, on two occasions trans men, and on one occasion a non-binary person genetically containing 2 x chromosomes. I have yet to experience attraction to a trans-woman or cis-man. What does that make me? I still consider myself a lesbian, and not a pansexual or bisexual.
In the end you define what label you feel most comfortable with. Do you really know that person’s chromosomes?
Yes, it was talked about between us.
I'm sorry, some of my stalkers are in here downvoting me and got you, too.
God damn, some people really need to find hobbies other than hating others on the internet. Sorry.
bi = looking for mr/mrs forever....
pan = wants a harem
This is poly vs mono.
I am Bi and poly/relationship anarchist.
that's just pan with extra labels.
I thought pan just added etc. to mr./mrs.
Bisexual refers to being attracted to people of both the same gender as you and different gender as you, so it already covers things outside the binary. It's a common mistake though, many people think the bi part means attracted to both men and women (excluding anything else).
Edit for clarity: the bi part of bisexual refers to both homosexual (same gender) and heterosexual (different gender) so nobody's left out. I guess an argument could be made that an agender person might not fit under either umbrella, but i would still consider agender to be either same gender (if the bisexual person is also agender) or different gender (if the bisexual person is not agender).
What about poly bi
