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BeanisBrain [he/him, they/them]
askchapoPart of it is a direct result of education, part of it is the gradual trend since equal rights were secured in the 70s.
And part of it is the cultural divide. I know that in South Korea there was a recent analysis of how young men and young women had rapidly drifted apart in political dimensions over the 2010s. I wouldn't be surprised if a similar trend was working itself out in America.
Historically, the misogyny was something women within the church were willing to put up with because it came with the promise of social stability. Husband as head of household was patronizing and belittling, but it meant husband as provider. The misogyny came with the trade off of a culture that emphasized men ensuring their families were taken care of, materially. Going back even further, women who couldn’t find a husband had the option via the church of entering a nunnery and having social stability that way.
However, shifts in the job market and more women having higher education degrees means women have more opportunity for self-sufficiency. At the same time, the rise of Christian nationalism has created an incel-informed culture within the men of the church that gives women a damned if you do, damned if you don’t choice. They get chastised and demonized if they have economic self-sufficiency for “taking” jobs away from men, but if they expect the traditional patronizing provider model then they’re greedy gold diggers looking to cynically use men. The misogyny has no trade offs now, so there’s little reason to stay in the church.
Before the seventies, US evangelicals largely thought that obsessing about abortion was a Catholic thing. The massive amount of Republican money pumped into US Christianity since then has made it less dependent on community support and naturally given it a more bourgeois character over time, and it was a matter of time before it became too desolate and hostile even for church-ladies to put up with it.
Do I need to reference the bible quotes again? Or is “Christianity has always been misogynist” clear cut this time around?
I'm down: hit me with some citations please
Lurkmore linked some good resources for stuff the bible says in general - the first has an entire section on “Misogyny, Violence & Discrimination Against Women” which links to pages on the second.
ajab named a good one - specifically Esther 1:10-22 if you want to skip to the “good” part.
From the start, Eve is blamed for Adam’s actions, and is cursed to be ruled over. In Exodus, we learn the rules for selling your daughters as slaves. There are no good women.
There’s plenty more heinous shit in the Old Testament, but Good Christians™ like to pretend that’s not their god, so let’s skip to the New Testament where that excuse shouldn’t fly.
In 1 Corinthians we learn that women were made for men, and that they must not speak in church because it’s disgraceful. 1 Timothy reiterates that women cannot teach men or have authority over them, and that they’re only good as baby making machines.
Ephesians teaches us that wives must always submit to their husbands, and in case that wasn’t clear enough, they’re reminded in Colossians (slight tangent, though given the instructions for how to sell your daughters into slavery, maybe not that big of one: this is also one of the places where the bible instructs slaves to obey their masters). Not convinced women should submit to men yet? That’s ok, we cover it again in Titus. Still not convinced? Peter has you covered.
It’s a good book.
Something that's notable here is that none of the New Testament passages are in the Gospels; there is no (even mythological?) record of Jesus saying or doing anything that asserted women as a less-deserving class.
If we're talking about Christianity compared to Judaism, the distinctions of the New Testament matter a lot more, and the core of the faith should be what it is judged by. Something in an Epistle matters a lot less than something in the Gospels, especially if the former is not based on the latter. The opinions of Jesus matter a lot more than the opinions of Paul; one can disagree with Paul and still be a Christian, but disagreeing with Jesus makes one non-Christian.
Misogyny in Christianity is a really good example of reactionaries (or egotistic and domineering people) commandeering religion for their own ends, and arguably, that was done with Christianity since they formalized their canon under Constantine to include the commentators that are now seen as objectionable. In some cases you see reform movements within religions that purge them of the controversies, but it could be that the millennia of patriarchy makes a religion unsalvageable.
Are the passages “as bad” as the ones I picked? I’d argue no, but:
- Marrying a divorced woman is adultery and it’s ok to divorce a woman who cheats, but no mention of being ok to divorce a man who cheats? This is repeated later.
- Firstborn males are sacred (not women, though), and women are unclean after giving birth
a- That always seemed understood to be symmetric across the genders, but maybe that was just the milieu I grew up in.
b- I don't see a reference in that passage to customs over being "unclean" from birthing. Beyond that it just seems like "...and they followed the standard Jewish customs for children". The consecration seems to be a reference to Exodus, where there is a symbolic role of the story of the escape from captivity. And the passage in Exodus 13 says "first offspring of every womb", without specification of gender. Someone could interpret "consecration to the Lord" however they wanted, but it seems to have a ceremonial implication rather than a material one.
Chapter 1 of The book of Esther and maybe some chapters after too.
https://www.lyingforjesus.org/Bible-Contradictions/ https://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/bible.php
Either of these has plenty of examples.
Not USAmerican, but maybe because women have more secular or legal support structures than men now?
Would the recent rollbacks on abortion have created extra distaste?
I've always heard that while the Church is run by men, churches are predominantly run by and for women. Perhaps the value of the local church as a social institution once made it worth staying despite the institutional problems, but that value has been lost in a critical mass of them.
I can see that. The women's class always ran the longest and they were not talking about Jesus lol.
I'd guess education. Women are more educated than ever so they are less religious than ever. 🤷
Edit:
In other words this
Seems explained by this Source
Why are white men such losers in college? I'm curious about the reasons for this
They are pretty much at the top of the privilege pyramid, so what used to be the upward mobility machine isn't all that crucial for them.
In addition to this lack of motivation I think post-secondary is also the first place a lot of privileged white men face push back on any of their ideas and opinions from both teachers and peers, particularly women and this combo makes them just go 'uh college is for woke scolds and it makes you gay anyway so I knew better'
Seems like it's just men across the board. Unless I'm missing something.
I think women are just realized to be a lot more studious and disciplined 🤷
Probably should compare to trade schools. Unless they are are part of the data.
The push to get people back in trade jobs has been more for cis men I think. There is a lot of subconscious assumption by most cis people that women can't do trade work. Least where I have been from. You still don't see a lot of women mechanics and what have you and if they are going into those fields you still have to fight tooth and claw so you really have to want it.
Least this is from casual observation from my areas. Could be wrong.
nobody is interested in keeping them there, while efforts to correct historical inequities are working (to some extent) and the attrition rate for other groups would be as bad or worse without those, and the attrition rates for marginalized people would be better if the remaining institutional bigotry was finished being rooted out.
The "I'm a cool dropout entrepreneur" mythos
It really is this more than anything else. So many silicon valley success stories start with them dropping out of college.
Last in last out. Marginalized groups becoming the most prominent members of an institution after the privileged group moves is an old occurrence.
Well until very recently, we weren't allowed. That takes a while to work its way out through the generations.
And eventually, the quantity transforms into quality and the church's hostility towards women increases, and then it accelerates.
Isolation and gaslighting mostly. Same as any misogynist abuse.
And a lifetime of psychological abuse to manipulate and keep them in line, alongside family structures that trap women in financial and social dependency. Cults parallel domestic abuse in many ways and a lot of Christian denominations clearly qualify as cults, especially those from the US. It takes a ton of work to free yourself from an environment like that, especially with the compounding factor that in large parts of the midwestern and southern rural US this shit is seen as perfectly normal.
The inheritances have been secured and now there is no longer a reason to perform.
