Heckin lost cause
(midwest.social)
FlippanarchyWe'd already have a revolution by now if the time anarchists and MLs spend strawmanning each other was put to good use
I mean, I usually just ask how we protect people dependent on extremely complicated global supply chains to survive for medicine or things like glasses.
Pure anarchy can't work and is very ablest. Dgmw fuck capitalism
No but you don't understand, there would be a person who just likes making eyeglasses who would do it for you!
And if there isn't one in your commune, or there is one, but they're mad at you? Tough shit I guess. Try not pissing people off next time.
Anarchism is when nobody does anything because there's no profit motive and also we hate people with disabilities I guess.
Anarchism needs a better state department to push PR about how it would work /s
We should start a committee.
Curious!
this.. is somehow top post .. wow
I heard having a sense of humor is praxis actually
i have a sense of humor, i even enjoy ugly and grotesque shit, however this is a lame strawman and an ugly one to boot. but hey, we all gotta get our kicks somehow eh/ so you do you
Strawman? That guy's there to keep the crows off the plants...
Am I to understand you've never seen or heard of someone acting like that in real life? It seems like plenty of other people have. I know I have.
You don't like it?
It's just lame?
This pretty much.
He's in the picture
Yea, this place is funny
i asked a capitalist to feed me when i was hungry and he laughed and told me to get a job. i replied, 'i applied to 200 jobs in the last year' and this smug expression settled on his face and he said, 'try harder, fuckass.'
And everyone clapped and handed him £200.
It's true! I seen it!
Saving this meme, even though anarchy fails to financially reward people for memes.
Conservatives used to make this argument about any policies they don't like and oddly not make the argument for policies they do like.
You can just say "I'm solving more problems than you" and watch them get on the defense
I just say I'm a nihilist and then watch their head explode.
Man is here to steal our rugs.
And of course you'll drop every single thing giving issues in the current system.
Okay, we just solve them one at a time using experimentation enabled by decentralization. Communities pick what works and discard what doesn’t, without a higher power dictating inefficiencies.
Boom. Done. Next question.
What's a community? How does it pick?
In 1999, when the Cape Hatteras lighthouse was in danger of collapsing into the sea, it was determined that it needed to be moved inland. The community was outraged, lawsuits and votes followed, and the local community determined that they did not want the lighthouse moved. The Army Corps of Engineers declared that the community of Hatteras was not in a position to win a war against the ocean, asserted the Federal Government's control over the lighthouse, and moved it anyway.
The move was a huge success. The lighthouse is now safe from collapsing into the ocean, despite the efforts of the local community.
I'm not saying submitting to a higher power (in this case a higher level of expertise) is always better... but sometimes it is.
Local communities are so much better than higher power that you needed to stretch for anecdotal evidence from the 20th century.
More lighthouses are being destroyed by the climate change that the Army defends and creates directly.
Gee thanks for the government, without it one lighthouse might have collapsed eventually.
But if in one community you don't have anyone that has a sufficient level of expertise for some area or another, and that might lead it to collapse into pseudoscience and bad decisions. I don't mean that you need a central authority, but you for sure need local authorities in X or Y question inside every cell of the federation.
That makes me wonder, is the pseudoscience that has infiltrated our central authority the inevitable result of a weak point, or merely someone fooling all of the people some of the time?
21st Century:
Grafton, NH, AKA the "and then the bears came" town.
Local community (demographically taken over by a bunch of libertarians) votes to slash town budget and regulations, including trash pickup.
And then the bears came.
A concentrated community of Right-wing libertarians/Anarcho-capitalists are destined to destroy themselves if they attain any sort of power, as they follow the Ayn Rand school of selfishness to the extreme. Grafton, NH isn't far off from how Bioshock explored the same ideas and how it would lead to societal collapse.
left wing libertarainism/Anarchism, on the other hand, is mainly collectivist, and we have well documented examples of that political theory working extremely well when put into practice.
1936 Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War organized an Anarchist society with over 3 million participants, and they documented much of how exactly they ran it, right down to how they kept the electric trams for public transport going (there is a fantastic book embedded at the bottom of that article, Collectives in the Spanish Revolution by Gaston Leval, which offers more details on other aspects of how they operated that society).
It's a fantastic historical event we can learn from and build upon.
Libertarians aren't the brightest bunch to begin with, but regardless, saying "look at this community that was wrong" in response to people wanting to remove central authority is not really an argument against the idea.
The entire point is that people are free to govern themselves. Governing well is up to the local communities. Some would do better than others, certainly. But with time, people would discover what works and what doesn't. They would make mistakes like these and learn from the natural consequences of their actions. It's imperfect because humans are imperfect.
Next problem in the world right now: trash dumping.
And a community would decide to prevent climate change more than a country would because...?
climate change that the Army defends and creates directly
Uh huh. You didn't answer the question. My town can't even successfully vote to keep the water district, there is no way we'd ban CFCs (let alone have done the necessary research) or fossil fuels. Everything you hate about the people of this country is because of the people who live in every town. It's the same people.
I did answer the question. Now you're moving the goalposts from lighthouses destroyed, as per the meme.
You cannot seriously think the conversation is exclusively about lighthouses destroyed
Fuck authority.
Sure, specifically the authority of people dumb enough to reject physical reality and endanger others.
Working lighthouses don't exist for the aesthetics.
Fuck reality.
Well at least you're consistent
Fuck consistency.
There’s a lot to be said for consistency. And yeah yeah fucking saying anything. We get it, you’re edgy…
that's why we have a thriving community right next to one that's ripping out its publicly managed topiary every decade. it's not "experimantation enabled by decentralization", it's grift and public policy failure
Isn't that essentially what we as a species have done since the advent of civilization?
Yeah until very recently
Eh, if by very recently you mean the last 12,000 years. From when the agricultural revolution started, assholes with armies started existing and exploiting people working the land.
It's the near 100% conquest of the planet by states, and the globalization of the power of companies that is more recent. It's the powerful trying to fully own everything, that is closer to 300 years old.
Was thinking on an evolutionary timescale with H. Sapiens first emerging 300,000 years ago.
So yeah, maybe not "very recently" as the phrase would be commonly understood, but surely "relatively recently" if "humans existing" is the frame of reference.
Not really, no.
This is anarcho-syndicalism, right? It sounds better and better every time I hear about it!
Edit: wait i think i misread you
I thought you said it was something like small organized communities each individually attempting to solve one problem at a time democratically and then everyone adopting the methods that work.
Most anarchist schools of toughs use this framework. If you are interested in the complex system theory side of anarchism The Desktop regulatory state is a good read.
Ooh I havent heard of that book before, thanks for the link. I love complex systems
Heres another one.
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/scott-nicholas-nappalos-emergence-and-anarchism
What works in one place may or may not work in another. What worked at one time may not function today.
In order to find out, the local nuance needs to be taken into account while engaging in experimentation.
what definitively works is my community conquering your community
thanks for all the stuff, and the slaves
I like the way anarcho-syndicalism only needs to solve the problems of the individual "syndicate" in question. It's a shame culture has corrupted the word "syndicate" into only being used when referring to "criminal syndicates", as if any private club or organized community weren't also syndicates despite not being criminal in nature. I would have used political parties as an example but the Democrat and Rape Pedo Klan parties absolutely most certainly ARE criminal syndicates...
Just so you're aware, the Democrats ALSO have a Klan problem
Typing anything into these fucken forums with my instance name and seeing the .worlders respond.
Hey man some of us worlders are anarchists too. We just didn't understand that each server has its own culture when signing up and just assumed bigger = more uptime
I picked the one that didn't make me give them an email address
Yep, me to. Wasn't so much that I didn't understand cultural differences, but the stability thing is true in the long run. I also want to minimise the possibility that I get locked into an anarchist bubble.
FYI l.w. takes some pretty significant top-down decision on your behalf. For example you're not even able to see !piracy@lemmy.dbzer0.com
Unfortunately there's also a possibility you get locked into a libtard bubble.
Shitlibs are bad but we don't need to use the ableist slur you used to describe them 🤦.
Shit. You're absolutely right, I have no excuse for that. Not cool, me. Thx for pointing it out.
If it gets bad I'll move.
It's...kinda already there 😑
I'm still getting your messages.
And how will you know when you don’t?
Yeah but it's still not great in lots of other ways.
And then there's me...
Same. Lemm.ee had just gotten shut down when I moved to .world. I didn't want to keep hopping instances and it had a low defederation rate so I could see and filter stuff myself as needed. Would be different if the primary reason I joined was to find anarchist spaces
Same. Came here from Kbin because I figured it would last the longest.
I miss lemm.ee too, fam ;~; i keep telling myself i should delete the 2fa token i set up for it on my authentication app because it'll never be used again but... It hurts. It hurts when i think about it. When i open the menu and see the option to remove it...
I mean its not hard to switch. I did it. But I did it because .world defederates from a lot that I wanted to see.
I mean
Having an account on an instance does not necessarily mean one agrees with that instance's politics. Also, I personally switched over from my SDF account gradually. (Nothing against SDF or their admins, but their servers were a bit unreliable for a while, and I wanted to leave bandwidth for other people to use their service.)
I mainly chose this instance cause @anarchist.nexus sounds sicc as fucc
Yeah me too. I also wanted to try out PieFed. (I usually do all my browsing and commenting in Summit, so the experience is almost identical to my SDF account.)
Join us! No time like the present 😁
oh look:
lemmy racism
the word you're looking for is 'prejudice'
Indeed, 'x-racism' is just a popular phrase.
My impression was world seems to be the landing place in fediverse from the wider internet. Is there an underlying demographic there I'm not seeing?
My impression was world seems to be the landing place in fediverse from the wider internet.
It is, but...
Is there an underlying demographic there I'm not seeing?
Liberal capitalists. In particular, the .world admins...kinda hate Anarchist Nexus and the rest of the Anarchist Flotilla (dbzer0 and quokk.au), because some of our people are too ~~fucking based~~ militantly anti-Zionist. We almost got defederated 😆
somebody ping me?
militantly anti-zionist
And tbh that should be the norm, not a problem 😤
They were calling Hexbear, Lemmygrad, and I think db0 (I forget specifically, except that it was an anarchist instance) the "tankie triad," as though we conspire all day to spread Russian propaganda against Hillary Clinton all day.
They still allow crypto-fascists and zionists, though.
The "triad" is referring to Hexbear, Lemmygrad and lemmy.ml.
I've seen dbzer0 referred to as a member of the triad a few times, despite how ridiculous that is.
Whether through ignorance or malice though, I'm not sure.
Plenty of libs think "tankie" is just another term for "communist" and have no capacity to distinguish between anarchists and marxists. No biggie.
I see. Thanks for telling what's up, I just picked my instance because I like vaporwave
Yeah I don't see that many leminal.space users running around, so I don't have much of an impression of them. Also I do try not to put too much stock in a person's instance. Like there are definitely exceptions (e.g. maga.place), but even for like .worlders I know there are a few anarchists running around.
Cannot take too seriously, comrades. Cannot forget the concept and reason for silly praxis.
If you make a home in other silly adjacent instances that generally mind their own business and spread the theory differently, neither the liberal capitalist nor the other natural enemy of an anarchist tends too notice much.
Both can't read too well, only quote.
Are you trying to gatekeep fucking anarchy, you fucking twit? If we don't join your shitty instance we can't be anarchists?
Put your head back up your ass and call when you grow up.
Edit: https://sh.itjust.works/comment/27128911
I'm in the wrong here.
huh? they're saying .world users don't like anarchists, where the hell did you see gatekeeping?
Typing anything into these fucken forums with my instance name and seeing the .worlders respond.
You see that as them saying .world users don't like anarchists. I see it as them saying .world users are all anti-anarchy.
Saying ".worlders" doesn't imply "some", "many" or "most". It implies all.
Lemmy.world is the largest instance. It's often the default when you sign up. By saying it the way they did, OP is discouraging and limiting discourse regarding anarchy. By painting the entire instance with the same brush OP is effectively gate keeping anarchy.
So then instead of "seeing the .worlders respond", would you take "seeing many of the .worlders respond"? Because that's...kind of a small change, really the only sensible reading. And it certainly doesn't deserve the vitriol.
And even if we did assume the (false) argument that literally all .worlders are anti-anarchist...you can just sign up for an account on almost any other instance, and then by the same (false) logic you're allowed to be an anarchist again. So even under such a reading, it's barely gatekeeping at all.
So then instead of "seeing the .worlders respond", would you take "seeing many of the .worlders respond"? Because that's...kind of a small change, really the only sensible reading.
That's a massive change. "Many" and "All" aren't interchangeable.
"Many" Americans voted for Trump.
"All" Americans voted for Trump.
"Many" anarchists describe themselves as such because they are edgelords, not anarchists.
"All" anarchists describe themselves as such because they are edgelords, not anarchists.
Big difference.
As for vitrol, read the tone of OPs post before you judge mine.
Edit: OP, a few minutes ago.
Edgelord.
As for vitrol, read the tone of OPs post before you judge mine.
I literally did, it's one single sentence. You escalated the vitriol. Sanctus's vitriol was against an instance, i.e. impersonal; yours was personal.
"Many" and "All" aren't interchangeable.
In this context...they are. The most active and vocal users on .world, in particular the admin team, are anti-anarchist. That doesn't mean that anarchist sympathizers and even anarchists don't exist at all on .world, but it is generically true that if you say anarchist stuff in a .world community, in particular stuff that directly challenges the assumptions of liberal capitalist ideology, you will get downvoted and flamed for your views, primarily by .world liberals.
Said differently: the dominant perspective on lemmy.world is an openly anti-anarchist social liberalism.
However, most people aren't annoying pedants like me and don't like writing or reading huge bricks of text. This is an informal online forum, doubly so as a shitposting community; it is reasonable and expected for you to be able to sensibly fill in the details. And if you wanted to disagree with his point, you really could have stated your point without being mean to Sanctus. (You still can, since you can edit your post and apologize for coming on too strong. I've done that before.)
And really, we're supposed to be comrades here. Not to say that we can never ever be contentious, but we really don't need to be screaming at each other if it can be avoided.
Edit: OP, a few minutes ago.
You're reading way too much into an off-handed comment. But since I'm an annoying pedant 😁: he said:
I mainly chose this instance cause @anarchist.nexus sounds sicc as fucc
He's saying that he chose this instance because it sounds cool. Not his beliefs. And there's no reason why an edgelord cannot be an anarchist. And I would argue that at least some degree of contentiousness, i.e. "edgelord behavior", is necessary (but insufficient on its own) to be an effective anarchist, for the simple reason that capitalism has made discussion about capitalism taboo.
Took your advice. Thank you.
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/27128911
Why does jesus hate horses?
https://youtu.be/4A7BLMA1LIw
Am confused, what does this have to do with jesus hating horses?
Ahh shit. I thought they played the full scene in that clip. They left out the best part.
https://youtube.com/shorts/qWFn5C7IUCc
My bad.
Fuck you too bud
Now kiss
See you on the front lines, homie.
No you won't cause I'm gatekeeping that, too. The first to the fight will be the twinks. Any fighters that survive the first wave will be too weak to stop the main invasion force.
Ahh...so a coward too. Funny how many of you I run into on here. Keyboard warriors with an instance fetish.
AINO
I AM A TWINK
Ahh...I retract my coward comment then. You're just an asshole.
Vast majority of problems in the world are caused by people with positions of authority. We treat authority the same way a scientist would, who just discovered that the radium in toothpaste is harmful.
There aren't many examples of authorityless communities to compare to.
The egalitarian Indus valley civilisation was just as technologically advanced, and lasted longer than the roman empire despite being much smaller.
The mapuche a (relatively) egalitarian tribe located in south america, was able to defend itself against the Spanish colonizers for almost three decades.
The early neolithic southern levenant was peaceful for over 10,000 years. we know this because they only started to build fortifications when the Egyptians arrived
despite being much smaller.
It's because they were much smaller. Anarchy doesn't scale.
implying scaling is a good thing
There are 8 billion people. It would have to scale.
smaller as in having a peak population of 5 million compared to the roman empire which had a peak population of 75 million people.
Yes, being 15x less populated is smaller.
It's kind of incredible that you were dumb enough to type this in all seriousness, like you thought it was some incredible dunk.
I'm sorry that math is difficult for you. But 75 million people is significantly more 5 million people.
Many things don't scale well, and self governance is one of those. All you have to do is look at shopping cart returns to see that people aren't capable of it.
Sure stateless societies might have worked well thousands of years ago, but the reason none of them lasted is because people suck.
I'm not against, anarchy or communism, by the way. I just don't think humans are capable of sustaining it. People who lust for power at all costs, and those who enable them, are our Great Filter
I dont see why it couldn't scale up beyond just 5 million
Because the larger the population, the more coordination of resources is required. A tiered government structure is the most efficient way to do this. Logistics for a city are very different than logistics for a continent.
And this was before globalization/industrialization too. What worked for societies thousands of years ago isn't a good indicator of what would work now.
But ultimately humans are the problem. The larger the population, the easier it is for bad actors to create positions of power.
The issue is the people who claim to have the answer for every problem. Delusional, the lot of em.
We will solve all with the dictatorship, comrade
If everyone else would stop being stupid and vote correctly, then my idea would be great!
Vote? VOTE?!? Comrade, party knows best. We decide.
Anarchist is a braindead way of thinking. Systems need to be n place for organization and allocation. You think those tribal societies didn't have systems?
We are anti-authority, not anti-organisation ._.
And who is gonna be the authority to organize everything?
You do not need an authority figure to organise stuff. We use the consensus model for decision making.
Scope out this dude's comments. He won't be reading any of that
welp, i tried 🤷
I never blame anyone for opening up to others in good faith. You're part of why this site doesn't suck
who decides if there is an issue and who presents it to who?
Anyone can bring up a issue forward to the group
how?
We need to renegotiate prices on lithium with China. How do I do that?
Who is "we" in this situation? Is it a post revolution United States? Is it a hypothetical island? Is this anarcho-syndicist, mutualist, collectivist, etc? There's more than one school of thought for anarchism
Why are we negotiating money in a moneyless society?
I dunno, am not an economist 🤷
↑↑↑
actually a good question. From my understanding it's the wronged party and they present it to their local community. Or you advocate for people who are being overlooked.
The model is for smaller communities so that if justice is done poorly then people interjecting can correct it
And whose the guy put all these rules and systems in place?
The collective will decide how to run things
Can you point to 1 example of this working?
This is how we organized for most of our existence
Who is the authority that controls the network your bittorrent client uses? Who is the authority that forces you to share? Who is the authority that keeps bad actors from ruining it for everyone else? There isn't one. Authority and violence are not the only models for providing systems. The fact that you can't even conceive of consentual systems is kind of scary, like there's an important piece of your mind missing.
I feel bad for you, you don't know how to admit your wrong. There are people that manage which code gets in there and doesn't. The fact you can't admit that is sad. Gl in life fr
You don't know how to think do you? Bittorrent is a hub created and maintained by someone. Just like lemmy has mods. Please really think before speak.
No, it's a peer-to-peer protocol that does not depend on a "hub" or central server. Like, very famously. Trackers exist to facilitate peer discovery, but the protocol allows clients to discover each other through DHT, "distributed lookup network," with no central server. Maybe you're too young to remember gnutella but BitTorrent was created to be invulnerable to disruption by doing away with all central servers. Fucking ask an AI before you start insulting people's intelligence, you don't know what you're talking about.
What about tor? What about i2p? What about gnutella? What about mojonation? What about the federation of Lemmy servers, who is in charge of that? What about FreeNet? What about Bitcoin? What about Ethereum? Bro, do you even code???
Finding your thesis convincing requires you to be utterly ignorant of the world you are living in, blinded by your own baggage and bullshit and too cowardly to be curious.
I don't need to code, who is the authority that codes that hub? Who updates it maintains it please use your brain
You might want to read up on what Anarchism actually is, since you seem to be pretty unaware: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism.
Do you actually want to learn or are you just trying to be a shitty little debate boy?
Nah you're just not very smart, no authority to manage very thing is actually copium.
This troglodyte needs hierarchy to feel ok and can’t imagine functioning without it. Not everyone can imagine a future they’ve never experienced. Many people were never taught critical thought and logic and your neural centers atrophy with disuse. It’s not their fault and we need to figure out how to deal with them before revolution and then care for them after.
That’s the problem with the ignorant and critically stupid; they think they know things they have no reasonable way of knowing. Case in point…
Go put a sticker on your car, little buddy.
Nah your the type of moron that doesn't like science
"No authority to manage very thing is actually copium"
Lol 📸
Literally never heard this once.
Literally every non-anarchist (authoritiarian) says something like this to me.
Lucky you 😆
