Philips shouldn't exist anymore. Torx plus is the champ
(midwest.social)
MemesRobertson (square) is the best.
Americans just don't know how to screw.
At this point you're just asking for a yo mamma joke
My momma is Canadian and she don't want no inferior American bits.
Yeah she sure knows how to screw
Yeah because she's Canadian... unlike Americans who don't know how to screw.
Then there's the Japanese Industry Standard (JIS) Philips, which is different from everything else. Without a JIS driver/bits, the head will strip.
I'm all for Torx and External (Inverted) Torx screws.
Also plastic clips on laptops, monitors or any small electronic, pretty much every time I open up something with those clips one of them just snaps apart.
The problem with using phillips is selecting the correct size. If you have the correct size its much harder strip the threads.
Also using good drivers that still have sharp edges.
Still prefer torx for anything more than drywall or door hardware.
One philips fits multiple sizes. A feature not a bug.
Yes, a #2 phillips will work for #1-3 screw heads, but will easily round over the smaller and larger screws. Using the correct size works much better. Also, getting a slightly more expensive screwdriver with the antislip ridges is a worthwhile investment.
Especially when a similar size will feel like it fits pretty well, until it came out at much less torque than it should.
I've picked up a set of anti-slip bits, they are pretty much ribbed so they bite into the screws just enough to cam out a lot less often. Works better than I hoped for maybe $7 for 5 bits in different lengths.
HA! Amateurs.
Chinesium
Looks like the next guys problem.
Hey!
Tool steel screw and mild steel bit.
Is that how drillbits are born?
*shorn
Because Philips screws were supposed to cam out, to stop overtightening on airplanes.
Maybe we shouldn't use Philips screws for non-aviation purposes.
Right but for aircraft we've got torque wrenches which can stop overtightening much more accurately.
I've read this was the justification after the fact.
https://build-construct.com/tools-and-equipment/phillips-screws-and-cam-out-what-the-original-patent-actually-says/
The only reason they’re so common is because of Henry Ford. Ford wanted Robertson screws, but Ford also wanted to make his own screws in-house. Robertson wouldn’t license them, Philips would, the rest is history. Robertson screws are much more common than Philips up in Canada (where they’re from).
Robbies are a different kind of pain due to metric and imperial sizing
? Is this sarcasm. Robertson's aren't imperial or metric, they are numbered
It's Allens that aren't in arbitrary sizes but their actual dimensions and sold in metric and normal sizes.
Torx is great until you can’t really see the bolt in question and think you have the right bit but actually it’s slightly small and rounds off the bolt entirely.
It is a good idea in general though.
As someone who has spent far more time than I want to think about removing screws and bolts that other people fucked, Robertson is the second most popular fastener to get brought to me with Torx in hot pursuit.
Philips head screws that are messed up come in two types. Soft cheese metal versions and the insidious Japanese style that are just ever sooo slightly different and require their own special driver. And most of you can't tell the difference or even care.
Plus, Y'all buy cheap ass "turn screws" as the British used to call them. When you buy dollar store quality tools you deserve what you get and I don't feel sorry for you.
Philips and JIS are interchangeable; it’s Pozi that’s not.
Have you ever turned these screws personally before? They are not perfectly compatible, just barely passable if the screw is in good shape and not too stuck.
So, I wanted to go at the guy for not reading your article but in reading it myself I did find possibly missing something. Like, they talk about them fitting within one another but then show that there are definitely differences. Maybe it’s a case of the same number screwdriver not being equal but +/- 1 number gets you back on track, I dunno.
The article definitely isn’t fully selling me on what they’re saying, though. I own a 1986 Ninja 1000 and have done extensive work to it(engine in half, whole bike in pieces at one point) and there was definitely something up with the bolts. I replaced them all with new button-head and socket-head hex bolts and life was much easier.
Tell that to guys with Japanese motorcycles. I still get people bringing me engine parts to remove the messed up screws. It costs real money to get me to fixture those parts in my mill and indicate the hole in and then very carefully remove your stupid.
I usually replaced all the JIS with socket head cap acrews for this reason.
Roberson = square for anyone normal >.>
We all learned what a phillips is, so we can learn what a robertson is.
But, yeah, most of us need a reminder for now.
It’s not a square, it’s better than a square. One of the sides is ever-so-slightly angled, so the screws stick onto the screwdriver before you get them in place.
Torx is good. Robertson is great.
Roberson
Robbie, if you're not posh.
Robertson = Robertson. “Square-head” is not clear enough, same as saying “hex-head” and not being able to say definitively whether you need an allen key or a socket. It’s not that difficult, just learn things.
I know the proper name, I also know that Benny didn't finish the 8th grade Smith is going to have no fucking idea what a Robertson is on the job site.
But he knows what a Philips head is? If he was Canadian, he would know Robertson.
Dumbing the world down for Benny is only hurting the both of you. I truly believe that some people are just shockingly stupid and that’s the end of it but you say Roberston enough times, without being an asshole, and even they will figure it out.
you say Roberston enough times, without being an asshole, and even they will figure it out.
And, if you're my dad, you say "the red-handled robbie" or "point the damned flashlight at the screw, genius".
I gave up, people I worked with would call both drills and impact drivers "screw guns"
Torx plus is different than torx in that the tips are thicker which makes the rounding off much harder to do
But still not impossible. Realize the incompetence of most people.
Robertson is the supreme screw!
At least you didn't leave the toolkit in the rain and almost burn the house down by leaving the soldering iron plugged in for a week.
Yes, I'm still alive.
And yes, I used a Phillips screwdriver in JIS and vice versa multiple times.
And yes, I used a Phillips screwdriver in JIS and vice versa multiple times.
Our new screwdrivers have Phillips tips that meet JIS standards
New; not 40 years old. But I mostly use my relatively new toolkit now, so I'm pretty much fine.
The important bit is further down
Our Phillips tips follow the ISO 8764-1 standard, which is compatible with the JIS standard B 4633. In fact, of the three main standards, ASME, ISO, and JIS, the least strict standard is JIS. As shown below, the JIS dimensions almost all fall within the ASME or ISO acceptable dimensions. Therefore, any Phillips screwdriver, such as our new Tekton Phillips screwdrivers, can be made to meet JIS standards. In fact, you should expect that all well-made drivers that meet the ASME or ISO standards will also meet the JIS standard.
But yes, this doesn't make clear if this has changed over time.
Not with the craptastic tools you guys use. Plus the general thumb fingered, hoof handed, club footed skills most of have. And yes, I exclusively use a JIS spec'ed driver for Japanese cross head screws. The fit is far better and I have far few issues removing those screws.
People who don't do that have often ended up paying $100 per screw removal to me to un-fuck their ignorance. I have spent so much money on tools for broken bolt/screw removal that it isn't even funny anymore.
Use better screws, don't screw around.
Quit screwing around! You all screw around too much!
better screws are torx
Torx often ends up being the worst of both worlds imo. It grabs too hard and you can easily overdrive it and strip the hole in some material. And you can also still easily strip the head if you don't get the bit seated all the way. I think the Robertson combo head is the best all around, since you have a Robertson bit for high torque applications and a Phillips bit for low torque and slightly off axis work. And then the "ecx" bit for "I'm going to friction weld this terminal screw shut" applications.
Material matters, if you use poorly made screws that's when the head gets blunted.
Philips screws are intentionally made to strip though. Even the best material can't fully offset bad design.
Philips heads are designed to intentionally cam over and limit torque, if you’re using the correct screwdriver that is quite a lot of torque. They certainly have a usecase, but that isn’t anywhere near me. I only use torx.
I read that was just an afterthought to explain away why they strip out so easily, instead of actually redesigning them
Nah, Robertson. Torx is designed to destroy bits.
Better screws are hex. Torx belongs in the bin alongside slotted screws.
What makes torx crap? Unlike hex, you can still screw them in if your screwdriver is at an angle, which can be really convenient if you're working at odd angles.
Robertson head screws are the second most popular fastener people pay me money to remove for them after they screw it up. Torx is third.
They make hex keys with ball ends to handle that
Yeah but with torx I don't need an extra bit to handle that, it's just a built in feature of the bit. It also doesn't answer why torx apparently sucks? "Hex can also do that if you have a special bit" doesn't make torx any worse.
Why would it be a separate bit? Most people I know just have a set of these
Well that's great until you want more torque (with the long side of the handle) or you're working in a space where only the short side fits in where the screw is, or you want to attach said bit to a drill. It's pretty common for bit-sets to just have ordinary (straight) hex bits rather than the rounded ones.
My guess is this is a situation where someone can never find the right size screwdriver
Unbrako and hex are great for bolts and machinescrews, on small headed woodscrews I’m a firm believer of the torx masterrace.
Agreed
I was going to say "don't screw up".
Don't underestimate the efforts some people are willing to go to.
Or the right size screwdriver and apply force down onto the screw as you turn
Doesn't matter. It'll still slip and partly strip it. Maybe only 1/5, but people are not machines.
Have you been to a lot of hardware stores with different grades of every of the 257 different types and sizes and thicknesses they carry?
Years ago when working in a boat shop at a “yachting center” aka “dudes with 20’ sailboats they’ve spent more effort repairing than their marriage” and I had a full wall of hardware.
An old school wooden hardware shelf.
My favorite thing ever in my whole life was being Willy wonka with fasteners and my rolly ladder
I'll get the torx universal wood and stone ones, thanks.
Hex screws are pretty good, I've never had one strip out
They do but you have to really work at it. I see them all the time as set screws on the fans in commercial ovens. Leave a set screw in an oven for years and that bastard will be so profoundly sized that you can round out even a hex screw.
I try so hard not to overtighten them but always fail
I read that back in the day when mechinised fastening was needed they didn't have a way to track the torque on screws. So rather than have the machine over tighten and break the head off the screw, the Philips head would fail first keeping the screw in place
Finally! Somebody who's not a simp for Robertson.
Robertson is great though
Why?
Robertson is clearly superior. You're not going to strip that, and it holds onto the screw better.
Yeah. Robertson plus an impact drill is some of the most fun screwing around one can do that doesn’t involve OP’s mom.
Wanna bet? Robertson is the second most popular screw people want me to remove. The cause is that they can't be arsed to inspect their tools and replace them when they are worn. It's the classic "I can do just one more".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_screw_drives
Newer drive heads have been invented since then
Why are they called after the brand of a kitchen blender, anyway? I call it a "plus head"
Yes, Apple, a company founded in 1976, invented torx in 1967.
You may be thinking of Apple's Pentalobe screws, which are inferior to torx and have no real business existing.
Literally no part of your statement is true.
Are you thinking of pentalobe screws? Which also do not have a security variation like you describe? Also Apple made no such claims about being the best force distributor or anything like that. They were very upfront and blatant about it being an anti-repair move and nothing else.
Americans will do anything to avoid admitting Robertson was earlier, better, and easier to make.
My experience with Robertson is only electrical stuff made with softer steel. You can really reef on it, but it will hang on to your bit. Nice when you need a second hand, annoying when my 10-in-1 becomes an 8-in-1
I fucking hate torx. The bits snap too often because they don’t cam out. Get some arm strength and keep your bit straight and phillips works great
Or get about half a brain and just don't over tighten your torx screws until they snaps
Torx drivers are cheap and rubbish, but ooh boy, Philips is the worst.
Check out the Toque Test Channel on Torx drivers. The companies have different patterns for their heads with different advantages and disadvantages.
Philips is bad. Pozi-Drive screw with Philips head is awful.
Torx is undoubtedly a better screw head, but I have so many drivers, especially the smaller ones, that have snapped heads. It's a manufacturing issue with the driver, not the screw head.
But I guess my comment still stands, you can complain about torx, but you absolutely can't compare it to how shit Philips is (including every variation and adaptation).
JIS!!!
And when some person inevitably uses a phillips on it, it will look like the picture above.
Why does this exist. Nobody has the driver for it. I could barely find a full size torx I needed for my car.
Alternatively everyone has the driver for it...
Given they are eventually putting the furniture together. It's just they never get it apart but frankly that's a problem for future me
Using JIS basically requires buying a special high quality screwdriver set. A few years ago I bought a few Nintendo switch repair kits that came with JIS drivers, and ended up removing the screws with a drill. Since then I bought an ifixit kit, which has heads that are actually the right size - unfortunately it is too late for my poor switch, that is now slightly mangled beneath its case.
Basically what I'm trying to say is fuck JIS.
JIS is only good for being cheap, and only works if you're a precision robot. You lose the autocentering and overtorque protection of Phillips, without gaining any of the advantages of Torx. (Phillips has overtorque protection in the sense that your tool doesn't break, the screw does; which doesn't matter if you don't need to unscrew it.)
I thought the whole “JIS is different from Phillips” thing was a misunderstanding and JIS is just a type of Phillips or something and it and “regular” Phillips are more or less compatible
Edit I found this: https://www.tekton.com/blog/jis-vs-phillips-screwdriver-tip-geometry-and-fastener-compatibility
I have this iFixit guide as my source: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Choosing+the+Right+Screwdriver+Bit/93991#s176809 According to that, the JIS screws have orthogonal inner angles, while the Phillips' are rounded, resulting in the slipping bits. However, some Phillips screwdrivers fill out that space, and thus won't fully go into a JIS screw, and effectively be too small, stripping it.
The last time this thread came up there were some convincing comments suggesting that the over torque protection for philips was not an intended feature.
