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askchapoEven worse idk much about codeswitching.
I can tell friends who are girls "I love you" and they take it as friendly. But guys can't hear this without thinking he's laid claim to a romantic and/or sexual feelings?
If I reject a girl asking me out with the attitude of a bubbly girl talking to another bubbly girl at a party, and say "I have a bf. But you're a babe!, You can get another babe!" She'd totally be friendly back about it... But once I said this to a guy who asked me out, and he proceeded to ask me for my number 4 times in less than 10 seconds.
Shit like this puts me in fight or flight mode. I have very little awareness of how or why I have to codeswitch between men and women. My skin is crawling nearly everytime a friend points out to me in retrospect that a guy was actually flirting with me after my only intention was being friends or a friendly neighbor. Yikes. I want to go back in time and yell "Fuck you stop being a creep!" (Ofc, they'd be too creepy to understand why I would say that.)
That said, I love my bf because his fem side makes him chill and understanding if a girl talks to him like he's another girl. I'm pretty quiet and mostly talk to him, and I have no guy friends. So I'm not learning codeswitching skills by watching him. How do you codeswitch and why do you codeswitch in the exact way(s) you do? I barely go outside, and I'm angry at guys everyday over this over past events I'm creeped out by.
as a bubbly femme extrovert who got sick of that shit, i have recently reduced my codeswitching substantially. I also stopped bringing up that i have a partner to ward off men. I don't try to hide it, and it usually comes up in casual conversation within the first three sentences organically if they ask any questions about me.
I'm tired of it being my fault that some men don't know what real platonic friendship looks like. they could just talk to me like a human being and not act entitled to my attention before making me reject them, but not my fault they choose to do this. Ideally they will learn from this self inflicted pain and learn that having platonic women friends are awesome actually, but i guess that depends on how deep into the incel ideology they are.
^ i only do this shit when i am in a safe public place though. My scary dog partner is generally not far from me at work either.
anyway to go a lil deeper i think it's bc a lot of male-male friendships are straight up bullying so it's not a surprise they fall instantly for any attention and support sent their way. I don't blame them, and i'm happy to provide attention and support to my friends platonically. The entitled ones though...
every thread about women's experiences under patriarchy on this site always ends badly because someone just has to show up with a "erm actually men have it bad too" argument
every single fucking time
weird one to put this under because this kind of experience for women is caused by men and those men are that way because of how they're damaged by patriarchy.
there's another comment in here about not setting up playdates and that's fine for individual women to not take on themselves, but if you're involved with orgs, socialization is something we should be providing the community. get the boys to do the actual work ofc.
Well, sure, and it's true. That doesn't diminish the validity of womens' suffering. Seems more like we're agreeing on our common motivations to dismantle the shitty patriarchal system.
It's posted in askchapo which makes it look like OP is looking for different perspectives. If it was posted in chat with venting tone indicator it would be clearer this isn't desired.
That was our first comment in this post, whats the "again". Are u confusing us for one of the other ppl rightfully calling that shit out
⌚made it over 30 min, a record
I just flat-out treat all men like shit and decenter them wherever possible. Reserving all of my kindness for women and nonbinary people is the only way to ensure my safety. Not my fault that men continue to materially benefit from and uphold patriarchy.
Edit: Reading through the "patriarchy is actually not benefitting men at all" replies once more shows me that i am fully justified in this. You incel mfers can't be trusted around women.
Nice of you to advertise that you're misandrist - always entertaining to come into contact with one to add to the library of examples to contrast decent people against.
"Fuck off woman, you are just being hysteric"
They said no such thing tho.
Looks like more of gender neutral fuck off
my trick to avoid overthinking codeswitching is to talk only to trans/queer people and deadpan anyone else
I gotta say, codeswitching isn't a men-thing. I present masculine and frequently get called all sorts of slurs when I reject women (which happens once in a while because I am very very hot )
Likewise I find I have to modulate the way I present myself in order to fit in so as to not be perceived to be hitting on them. I dunno, I feel like code-switching is just part of life, one wears all sorts of masks in different social contexts. Then again I am neurodivergent.
Speaking as a neurodivergent, my experience has generally been that men are much more accepting of neurodivergence than women. Or at least those that are unaccepting do much less about it. Maybe it has something to do with that "loneliness epidemic" that people talk about, men are more used to some guys being kinda weird? Or being kinda weird is more socially acceptable in male groups? I dunno.
The most vindictive pursuant people I've met have been women. However their actions have been limited to being really shitty socially, while men are usually... More physically violent.
It's not the issue that we gotta be aware of how others interpret our actions, nor is it that men are more creepy than women; it's that we live under a system of gender norms that make it so a creepy man is much more of a threat than a creepy woman.
I know it's "not all men" and "the good ones know its not about them" and all that, but I do really think there is an issue with this kind of thinking. It's adjacent to bio-essentialism. I remember a little while ago some long-time user wrote a good breakdown about it, I'll try to find it.
nor is it that men are more creepy than women
I think men are generally more creepy than women, more emotionally dysregulated and generally less likely to take no for an answer and a small portion of men are also really, really violent about it in a way that women generally aren't.
However there is this bizarre "noble savage" view of cis and heteronormative women by especially queer women that seems really absurd to me. Let's look at OP's example for example and try to discern something, men hitting on her are more likely to be straight and heteronormative, while women hitting on a women usually aren't. That's already a massive skew of the demographics. If you are a man and you interact with a woman that hits on you or flirts with you with coldness or rejection, you are not at all unlikely to receive vitriolic and homophobic abuse but they tend to not insist, at the same time as a man if I am vaguely hit by another they also tend to take no playfully and disengage just fine and I am flirty myself. There is also unfortunately a culture around the idea that a men has to pursue relentlessly to get attention from women which is an entirely another thing that women don't get and makes them react differently to rejection.
Nevertheless this type of gender war is not really constructive and I find it very juvenile, a lot of men do get really defensive about it too especially if they consider themselves sensitive to feminist issues which is not right way to discuss it.
I think we agree on everything you've written here, apart from whether men are more or just as creepy as women. Because all the other stuff is the same as I've said, unless I gravely misunderstand you.
I dont know if there are any good studies about the frequency of creepyness, and I do have the copout of "women aren't taken seriously, which is why we do not notice their creepyness" so it is kind of hard to talk about. It doesn't matter all that much in the context of OPs post either, I suppose.
Nevertheless this type of gender war is not really constructive and I find it very juvenile, a lot of men do get really defensive about it too especially if they consider themselves sensitive to feminist issues which is not right way to discuss it.
:yea: getting ahead of juvenile actions was sort of part of why rule 8 was made, but it hasnt been enforced in a long time.
I’ve had a lot of women either suggest or outright call me gay/slurs for gay/question my masculinity when they didn’t like my response to them flirting with me. I live in one of the most liberal cities in the US, as well.
How did this break rule 4?
Hope you get banned you absolute wretch.
I kinda mostly agree with you but shit like this doesn't exactly help either.
Yeah I flew off the handle. It was dumb of me. Thanks for calling it out
It took me a long time to realize I could be perceived as threatening. In my mind I always assumed I was a smal bean. My partner explained this about me. I realize a lot of my partner liked this about me, and would end up resenting me because that wasn’t how I perceived myself. I try my best to express non threatening niceness. But also realize that that in itself can be perceived as a ruse. Sorry, it’s just strange the bodies we end up in. I just don’t want to be scary.
This is very relatable. Seeing the moment of genuine fear in someone's eyes when they round a corner in front of me or open a door to reveal me on the other side feels bad.
I'm hoping it comes in handy for passively defending comrades i hang with and i just don't know it.
I've accepted this about myself and now just try to offer people quick relief from the fear with a smile and good vibes, and by not making sudden movements until they know I'm a clown
My thing is, you don't got to be nice to them if they are being a bastard. And honestly if you put hard boundaries it means they are less likely to stick around. Normally guys who do the shit you mention are people fishing for someone with weak boundaries. They want to see if they pressure you enough if you will cave and just go along with it. And eventually it will work. They'll find someone who was groomed to do that by their parents or a previous partner and boom.
The thing about it is these type of creeps don't even realize that they are being creeps. They don't care either. One of the most eye opening things I learns is abusers often think they are the real victims despite every evidence of the contrary.
Its why it's so important to stick to good healthy boundaries. No means no and all that. Odds are they'll think you are more trouble then you are worth and go somewhere else. I don't know if that counts as code switching for you.
Of course if you feel that safety is a issue then you might have do a no thank you. But honestly you still got to be firmed and honestly ACAB but don't be afraid to threaten to call the cops. Of course I wouldn't just cause the wife beaters won't do anything, but if need be you can have a friend who you can call and act like its the cops while they come to help. If it gets that bad.
TW: personal descriptions of assault
::: spoiler spoiler I think a lot of guys take being turned down as an insult, as if I'm telling them I think they're ugly or a bad person or something. The irony is 100% of the time it's always because I'm just shy, don't know them well enough to know if it's safe to commit, or am busy and tired, or I just think we are too different to be a good match. Hasn't stopped me from being screamed at, assaulted, stalked, or having rumors about how evil I am spread around for the crime of saying "Oh, sorry I'm not looking for that." :::
My theory is it has to do with boys and men being starved of emotional intimacy and left ravenous for validation as a result. All while they are overly praised for shows of power and told that's just naturally how men are "supposed" to act. And that they then are raised wanting any sign that they are powerful in ways that dominate those around them. And this fucked up system gets passed from older generation to younger generation.
That's all I have so far.
And male socialization kinda explicitly raises you to be interpersonally and emotionally underdeveloped in many ways. If you ever engage in your emotional experience or are too sensitive to others you are punished for it.
Much of the suffering innate to the experience of manhood, and the suffering men subject women to, are a product of the way patriarchy teaches men to cut off and prohibits some parts of their humanity. Just like it does for women who, to my understanding, are also taught that some parts of the human experience are meant to be off limits for them (like autonomy, independence, ambition, etc.)
And so in addition to starving for intimacy, men are also kind of raised in a way that leaves them, unfortunately frequently, kind of interpersonally and emotionally stunted. Does not a make a good combination. And it brings both men and anyone in community with men a lot of distress (that men struggle to identify or understand because that would require abilities to introspect or empathize they've been punished for ever practicing when developing as people)
It sucks! 😀 for everyone, in many ways!
Sounds about right
Growing up as a boy, there was a lack of emotional intimacy and "ravenous for validation" was the end result. But even when I was in relationships, it wasn't enough. I was never going to get validation I wanted as long as my partners viewed me as a man.
Also just garden variety patriarchy and sexism. There's a base programming in the traditional male upbringing that the only reason to talk to a woman is to court her. I'm betting a lot of guys in relationships who could be friends with you just opt out of talking to you because they already have a partner. So you're mostly getting single horny men talking to you.
As a straight cis male, we're mostly not worth the effort.
That's p much it. Most guys are desperate for affection. Married or single often makes no difference. We are are often deeply alienated by society as a population
Most guys are desperate for affection.
That's part of it. The other part is that guys think they are entitled to affection, and that women are responsible for men's emotional well-being. This is something that is ingrained since childhood, both from the way mothers are centered in how our society raises children, how we frame the emotional wants of men and from the way kindness and closeness are discouraged in interactions between boys. I get that people living in a male gender role are frequently alienated, and get shamed for behaviors that would be necessary to form deep emotional connections, and these are real and valid problems. But you can't stop at that point and say "well, men just need more affection". Because this centers the man's demands and wants without looking at who fulfills them and what that entails. So then you have the classic situation where a guy can only be emotionally open with his partner, and then she has to constantly be his entire support system. This is what perpetuates the problem. Because other men are unavailable and because women are supposed to be caretakers, you end up depending on one woman shouldering a man's entire needs for affection and validation and emotional stabilizing.
Operational terms here being one and woman. When i look at women and nonbinary people in my life, we have our entire friend groups as support networks. When i need to vent or need somebody to show me affection, i can write to several friends if they have the time and energy to do that, or i can go to a server a friend runs and post in a vent channel and see who replies. It's usually the same people, but it's more than one person. This is important. Doing emotional support for others and showing them affection is draining, even for somebody like me who absolutely needs to take care of others to feel fulfilled. Also, none of them are partners of mine.
And men need to work on building something like that as well. You can't rely on women to do that for you. Men need to learn how friendships work, and that is no easy task in a society that does not allow homosocial behavior among men. But it is needed, as more and more women are past the point were they are willing to put up with men as they are right now.
extremely well put.
it's entitled behavior to make it women's problem that men aren't building community with each other. and that's the issue. i'm not gonna call his mom for him or somehow build safe men's spaces or set up play dates for adult men to make friends like they are children. we can't build build any type of communism without community, and some of us are already holding up half of *that *particular sky, thank you very much.
Kinda related side note: Most women do not hold up just half the sky, they hold up a significant extra portion of it during the unpaid second shift.
Damn. This is a great insight and needs to be emphasized:
Because other men are unavailable and because women are supposed to be caretakers, you end up depending on one woman shouldering a man's entire needs for affection and validation and emotional stabilizing.
From this perspective, when a man is turned down by a prospective partner, he is agitated not merely because he is insulted. All of his frustration and unmet desires by society become focused entirely on the one person. That person stands in, not as their personal self, but the abstract embodiment of society. Their rejection or affirmation then becomes that of society. It’s sad yet inexcusable at the same time. But then it is clear how and why incels come about — refusing to participate in the process, but in a confused way which blames women for patriarchy.
Your solution is also spot-on. If the problem is a lack of validation, then men need more validation, not only from partners, but from everyone, particularly but not only other men. The dichotomy between partner and non-partner has to be significantly reduced.
We are are often deeply alienated by society as a population
How so lol? Men run the patriarchy, we're given everything we want and get excuses made for our bad behaviours. The only alienation that occurs is because of capitalism, and of our own making.
The patriarchy runs itself and benefits and hurts all genders.
It is a system of oppression tied to capitalism in order to extract value beyond the walls of the workplace. It also exists without capitalism, but in modern society it has been subsumed by it.
Just like how patriarchy lessens womens freedom (I forgot the word for 'ability to do stuff/allowance to act') and forces them into roles as "homemakers" and mothers, it also forces men into specific roles.
When I say it benefits all genders, what do I mean?
Women aren't taken seriously and are reduced to sexual objects. This also means that women cannot be perpetrators, a perspective we frequently see when a female pedophile gets caught - typically resulting in lower punishments than men.
Likewise due to their designated roles as breeder and child-raisers, women are typically awarded the majority or totality of maternity leave.
For some, I assume, the gig of staying at home was nice, just like some men masochistically enjoy being the breadwinner.
Additionally, since women aren't taken seriously, they are awarded a much wider range of emotions by society than men are.
Women aren't expected to be proactive in the romantic sense, they are to be courted. This seems like something of an enviable position according to the guys I know.
Looking at this one could say "Wow BanMeFromPosting is an incel chud who thinks women have it good under patriarchy, they're an MRA-stupidpol user who has infiltrated hexbear!" If one wanted to be a hostile shithead who assumed the worst of people. Because that is very clearly not what is going on. These "benefits" aren't really all that good and they are all contingent on further enforcing gender norms. They also lock women into roles of being glorified incubation tubes. But look at how patriarchy "benefits" men and you'll notice the same issues.
- Men are socialised to be brutal unfeeling actors in order to be the most efficient agents of capital. This means most patriarchal societies place an expectance upon men to engage in violence - like joining the military. This socialisation also leads to mens lacking social and emotional skills that lead to issues for everyone, including men.
- Men do not learn basic skills like sewing, cooking, Cleaning or other house maintenance, because it is expected women do it for them. This also means the patriarchal man is incapable of taking proper care of himself.
- I could go on, but I know no matter how much I spell it out a bunch of users are going to disappoint me anyway and say I hate women or some bullshit, so why bother? I'll go looking for that thread from a month ago where someone spelled it out for people that understood how to interact with users who didnt share the complete same worldview.
Sorry, that last point was a dumb digression. What I'm trying to say here is that patriarchy is also incredibly hurtful to men. Its not all sunshine and roses. Think back to your own upbringing and think about how society would try to shape you. Think about the gender norms enforced on you.
Once again: That's not to say that men aren't perpetrators or beneficiaries of patriarchy, they clearly are. They're made into a privileged class that gets to do all sorts of stuff that women don't. Like have bank accounts or walk down the street at night without fear of being SA'ed.
But that's also not to say that women aren't participators in patriarchy. They aren't some divine perfect feminine, they're people like everyone else, and so exist within and enforce society. Try reading any cooking book from before the '70s. That shit be written by a lady, but it is the most misogynistic shit you'll read in a good while^[Now, of course, some dipshit will read this to mean that my best and only example is "very old cookbooks", rather than take it for the beat anekdote it is, and I will once again get disappointed].
Sorry for turning this response into a vent.
Edit: And don't get me started on the treatment of trans people or enbies.
I appreciate the response.
Thank you
We are bound by patriarchy. The number of men that actually enjoy any benefits from it is small. Sure, most men get some benefits from it. However we mostly don't enjoy them. So the way most men experience patriarchy is by being cut off from out own emotions and then being cut off from any kind of meaninfully bonding with others. Then stuff like being alienated from household chores is actually bad for our emotional development. We'd be better of without it.
men running the patriarchy isn't a blanket benefit to men and masc presenting people. Who the fuck is we? what a white cishet thing to say.
They might mean to say something more like alienated from human interaction/their own emotions. Which is done by men to themselves and other men but it's still done.
And also women, to be fair. We are all products of our social conditioning. Men, women, queer folks, all uphold patriarchy to the extent they are raised by/in it, until they do the work to unlearn in.
Yeah, but even stuff like never eating vegetables is patriarchy. So, we don't know how to mend our clothes our wash our ass. Getting out of doing luandry is not worth it.
even stuff like never eating vegetables is patriarchy.
i thought that was white people cooking and sensory issues
I dunno, most dudes I met in South America were the same. Big on meat.
that's a pretty good summary of bell hooks' the will to change, honestly
My skin is crawling nearly everytime a friend points out to me in retrospect that a guy was actually flirting with me after my only intention was being friends or a friendly neighbor. Yikes. I want to go back in time and yell "Fuck you stop being a creep!" (Ofc, they'd be too creepy to understand why I would say that.)
just trying to flirt is being a creep? i do not understand human socialization at all.
*Nearly everytime. Not everytime.
There have been kind people who demonstrate kind and appropriate ways to approach and try to ask me out.
I would not say so in general, continuing to flirt when not receiving reciprocation is usually unwanted though. As is flirting with monogamous people who are partnered.
People are free to find things creepy though, and it can be extremely frustrating and objectifying if the only mode of interaction with men/masculine presenting folks you experience (or the vast majority) is one in which they are seeing you in a potentially sexual light. It requires you to be more guarded and selfconscious when you notice it happening when you don't want it to.
As is flirting with monogamous people who are partnered.
Or, i cannot stress this enough, flirting with a lesbian when you are a man.
right i understand those dynamics but OP is talking about (attempted) flirting so subtle or incompetent as to go unnoticed in the moment and then the other part.
i don't want to hurt anyone, nor to get hurt, so i don't know what to do with this information besides never talk to anyone (which is very easy when nobody else wears a mask)
OP is one person venting, I would not recommend setting entire behaviour patterns based on such posts.
It is good to be sensitive, but part of socialising involves making mistakes or even not making mistakes but still sometimes bothering people due to incompatibility or differing expectations. Generally if you are polite and respectful things will go ok. For example if you are complimenting someone and they seem to be getting very excited and showing interest in you and complimenting or teasing you back and you ask if they'd like to meet up/for their number/whatever and they say no or suddenly seem uncomfortable a quick apology and an opportunity for them to excuse themselves like "well it was lovely to meet you and I hope you have a great day" is not likely to bother someone.
I frequently don't catch flirting due to obliviousness around social norms. I have an especially huge blindspot to flirting. I'm multiple decades old amd I've rarely flirted my entire life. I'm not asexual, but other than with my current boyfriend, I've barely experienced flirting at possibly nearly asexual levels. There's a lot of dynamics and vibes I don't pick up on.
In case you're wondering, I'm not autistic. I'm just a very quiet, neurospicy person who needs to understand styles of conversation more. As you can imagine, having to codeswitch on top of that throws a wrench in the very little conversational knowledge I have.
Customer service voice
If i have a pound for every man thats fallen in love with customer service id be a billionaire
