PugJesus
Fediverse memesSome will cheer, some will be mildly disappointed. But I'm out, I think.
Every frequent poster on lemmy has their personal fan (hate) club. Some justified, others not so much. It'll be a shame to lose you, but take a break if you need it. I've taken several, but I keep coming back :)
I know Lemmy has its issues, but I swear the more I hear about Piefed the crazier it sounds.
I will never understand why people want to trade the corporate nannies for some self-elected nanny.
We don't need any of this weird social engineering junk
I mean... I disagree with the vote quotas specifically, but anyone running an instance is gonna have to have some kind of controls, and Rimu's being open about what's going on and why and it's not a big deal for me. The point of the fediverse is that you can pick the particular instance whose policies you're OK with. With corporate sites you only get one "choice" and they hide their algorithms from you.
I don't think it's fine the quota is enabled by default for everybody. You want to have the option, fine - but don't force it on people. Should be opt in.
I was looking on a couple of posts about it recently and there was an instance when (I think) admin of one instance updated it without realizing this feature is in there. That's problematic.
There goes one of my main reasons for visiting this site 😢
Pouring one out rn. Safe travels bud
That would be decidedly tragic. Your history posts are basically the most interesting things on here. I think a lot of people will be more mildly disappointed, including myself, to see you go.
If you do leave, thanks for the time you were here. You have been appreciated!
Nooooooo pls noooooo dear Pug, don't leave us alone in these times :(
That being said, your own mental health is the most important thing you've got, so take care <3
Is it really that hard to do a migration?
1: Backup your lemmy settings
2: Create new account on new instance
3: Upload saved lemmy settings to new account
4: Change browser bookmark
What else is there? I don't see what the big deal is.
It's not a huge amount of steps but feels unnecessary.. I remember being put off applying for instances as would need to complete an application and got rejected a few times.
NO! Please! Say it ain't so!
This can't be happening
This fucking sucks but I get it. Been thinking the same. You made this place better and we are at a loss now!
Whatever you get into ma it bring you happiness and prosperity!
Ah, we'll miss you. Your content is consistently some of the best out here.
The piefed admins are making a huge mistake with this change, and they're basing it on bad statistical methods. Every user already only gets one vote per post or comment, so it really doesn't matter if some users exercise that ability more than others. So framing it the same way as wealth disparity (literally using the same kind of chart) was not very insightful.
And to think I was considering switching to piefed soon... guess not anymore...
I’m OotL, does anyone have a link to whatever is being referenced here?
https://piefed.social/post/2203748#comment_12082581
Thanks for the context. I rarely comment on your posts but seen them a lot. You will be sorely missed.
I've batted for piefed.social over in reddit to bring people into the threadiverse as well as here to newcomers that might want all the other good features piefed have. I guess I'll have to change instances, where I'm on as well as what I recommend.
You’ll be greatly missed. Thanks for everything.
I don't know who would cheer, you're one of the pillars of this ecosystem as far as I'm concerned and even though I don't say it enough I always appreciate your efforts in keeping so many niche subs fed with constant content.
I totally get how you're feeling, and I can't blame you for being burned out. You've put in an insane amount of work over the years. I hope you find some time to rest.
You will be missed, and will be remembered for a long time.
I haven't seen anyone prolific on Lemmy not get hatred. Most of it I haven't felt was justified.
Incidentally, I like your username.
Count yourself lucky lol. I know several and they aren't good people to know. But yes this will definitely make the new feeds a lot lighter. And traffic overall go down. Neither of which are great.
More than mildly disappointed to hear, though I totally understand. Yours was, in my opinion, the best content on the Fediverse. You will be sorely missed, and I hope where you go next ends up a more peaceful and less disruptive experience. o7
I'm glad I didn't jump over right away. I was going to, and then things started getting weird and uncomfortable with it.
but who will explain all the history memes
I think I might be out of the loop. What's happening...?
There is a new rule metering the number of votes that can be cast by a user. You can see yours on your profile.
That's.... really weird.
On the surface the reasoning behind it makes sense, but there is also something about it (that I can't quite point out yet) that rubs me the wrong way.
It doesn't make sense though. It was presented as this unequal distribution thing where a few users cast the most amount of votes, but that really doesn't matter because each user still only gets one vote per post or comment. No one's opinion is outsized or disproportionate just because they vote on a lot of things.
It was really bad statistics from the start. It was framed sorta like wealth disparity, using the same kind of chart, but it's categorically not the same thing.
but that really doesn’t matter because each user still only gets one vote per post or comment.
where does the policy change actually impact the user then? I guess at maximum we can't upvote more that 240 things a day (comment or post). I think that's more than the vast majority of users do per day, right?
The point isn't about how many users are likely to hit the daily limit, the point is how having a daily limit might cause people to start rationing their votes. Instead of doling them out however they see fit, they might start thinking "hmm, but is this worth spending a vote on?"
Overall, that can have a chilling effect on voting in general, lowering engagement and reducing the motivation to post (if you only get a handful of upvotes on each post, it might feel "dead" and seem to have no point. It's encouraging to see several dozen users like your post). And that can expand to a chilling effect on posting.
Also, if someone has a disability or is recovering from illness or surgery then they're more likely to spend more time on here, meaning they're more likely to reach the vote quota. This disproportionally impacts them.
Sure, 240 a day is high, but it's not unreasonable for a human to reach, and it's nowhere near "obvious bot" territory.
Based on the charts rimu shared, there are so few users who actually reach "obvious bot" territory that it's impossible for them to not highlight themselves, and they should be easy enough to handle on a case-by-case basis. We're talking less than 10 accounts. Admins can look at each one to examine their activity, and if they're a bot they can remove the account.
There's no reason to limit people's votes.
i guess it's an anti-botting measure where they can't distinguish a power user from an automated system?
There are so few accounts that have that much activity on them that admins could easily handle them on a case-by-case basis.
This doesn't get rid of the bot accounts, it only limits their voting activity like everyone elses, which will make them harder to detect.
It will make it easier for a bot farm to outvote the humans.
I get that whilst also dancing on the idea that perhaps a power user shouldn't post so much? This is decentralized social media, there really shouldn't be an aim to maximise here: You post, you like, you don't like.
If the aim is to farm engagement and thus a "power user" is born, then I suspect their motives or at least implore them to touch grass more often.
I'm making a lot of judgements here, and probably deserve any downvotes I get here - but if your posting habits are indistinguishable from a bot, then question your posting habits
All social media pretty much operates on a 90/9/1 division. Only 1% of users actively post. Only a fraction of that 1% are power users like PugJesus. Killing power users won't accomplish a different division of labour where more people post, it will only accomplish killing the ecosystem as a whole.
You thought the Fediverse was dead now? Wait until the power users disappear.
Farming engagement has no incentive. It can't be monetized here, there's no karma. There would be no point.
Power users on the fediverse aren't doing it for personal gain, they're doing it to enrich the fediverse and make it a more attractive alternative to corporate social media.
We see so many complaints that it's dead here, or there aren't enough communities, or it's hard to find the right community for something, or if the community exists it might be dead. That's a lot of people's rationale for not switching from reddit.
Power users here are trying to fix that. It's an enormous task and more than a single user or a handful of users can do, but they're doing their part and in many cases carrying more than their share of the burden. This change is kind of a slap in the face to them.
That sounds like the PieFed admins are just going to make it worse. Now there's going to be first user advantage, with the first comments on a thread getting preferrential treatment
I don't see how. Unless you mean people rationing their votes are less likely to scroll as far down?
But yeah this place is going to be desolate without pugjesus, and I wonder how many more people are gonna leave once users rationing votes results in content receiving less engagement.
Overall, just a terrible decision in my opinion
Based on the stats shown in Rimu's post, the monthly average vote count of the top 5000 of prolific voters was 1142, and among the top 147 prolific voters, their average monthly was 6868.
With a 240 daily limit, that comes out to 7200 votes per month, which is already above the average of the most prolific voters.
Those 147 top voters may be effected if they only voted sporadically throughout the month (so they vote like, 500 one day and 700 another, but with some rest days of no voting in-between), and those posting above that average who definitely would be effected appear to only total about 60 people.
So for 99% of the userbase, they would not need to consider rationing votes at all.
Ok, so in the announcement post they talk about mostly technical reasons for this. But from the linked post it does in fact sound like the aim is to throttle most active members because they have too much influence?
This is what rubbed me the wrong way and I just couldn't figure out why. We all have one upvote to give, some people just give it way more of them - so in comes the great equalizer in the form of the daily quota.
I hope you pardon my exagerated metaphor, but this is like limiting free speech for journalists, because they excercise the right of free speech way more than others.
It's "just" votes so I'm hesitant to call this censorship but... this does feel like a first step. Will there be daily post quotas too because some people post more than others?
Yeah, I can't seem to see what it accomplishes except to make the few users that reach it kinda mad. It seems like an experiment at best to see what kind of effect it will have on hot/all.
Wait, like total votes ever? Like you hit it and you can never vote again?? 😭
No, just over a set period of time.
Ohhh, that's way more tolerable! Thanks for letting me know, got worried there lol.
I think it was YouTube back in the day that used to have a max number of total likes per account? After which, it would appear as if liking worked from your end, but it didn't actually do anything on the backend. I was afraid we had one of those situations.
youtube still has a limit on upvotes, i am pretty sure it's 5000. once you have 5k they remove your oldest ones.
Oof, I hate it...
This is correct at the moment. One can check by going to your their Liked Videos playlist.
Please PugJesus, don't leave us :(
Piefed so weird
Spectacular how it went from everyone's favorite to an absolute mess.
Guess that's what happens when software becomes opinionated.
Sounds like you're saying you're quitting threadiverse entirely? Sad to hear. I enjoyed your history stuff particularly
Just wanted to let you know how appreciated you are. Yours is the only username I recognize honestly, and I know it's going to be good shit when I see it.
I understand burnout though. Can't fault you for wanting to care of yourself. I encourage it, actually.
edit: typos
Glad to have PyLova to counter Rimu’s desire to limit what users can do on PieFed.
How hard is it to just let people use software how they want. Anti-user design is so anathematic to the spirit of the Fediverse.
Nice! First time hearing of PyLova. Is that what quokk.au uses? Are there already any other instances powered by it?
Really sad over the direction PieFed takes, and this one sounds interesting.
Yes it’s what Quokk.au uses. From what I know a few other instances are looking at switching.
rimu: provides a choice
smoothbrains: how dare rimu take away my freedom of choice
A choice to hard limit all users on .social to a number of votes he has determined to be sufficient.
Also let's not use ablest language please.
Also affects incoming federated votes, right? So it's affecting everybody else as well.
i gave ur mom a hard limit lmao
How hard is it to just let people use software how they want
You can choose the instance and even the software you use, isn't providing different choices exactly what you want?
I am in the latter category: mildly disappointed. 😞
Maybe a little more than mildly, tbh 😭.
Fwiw Piefed.zip won't have a voting limit added right away (source).
Uhh why would any social media website not like engagement? Especially a smaller one too. Red flag right there. I think I'm going to stick to Lemmy and avoid PieFed for now.
Please don't leave though. I hate Reddit, FB and all the rest. Where do you plan on going? This is the only platforn that I feel safe enough to use and get my content from. I don't know what I'd do do without the fediverse or people like you who have the energy/motivation to keep making posts for us to enjoy! :(
Sometimes there's only so many hours in a day. And so ultimately you have to make a choice whether that goes into moderation and maintenance, or development. Also remember that the fediverse isn't generally paid to be run and addict more and more people. It's a service for those who want to use it. Many of which don't pay but give their participation.
I wonder if that will become a problem eventually - the few larger, better funded instances sponging up users from smaller ones that need to limit themselves, somewhat centralizing the fediverse.
Thankfully the way it's designed there isn't exactly a lot of reason to do that. As long as the contents are accessible from the instance I'm on and they don't have me blocked etc. Then what does it matter if I'm on said instance? As long as the instance itself does what I need?
In Pug's case they are a mass moderator and poster. Which for them presents different difficulties. Difficulties in both growing and feeding the community etc. Very different from the average user.
I mean, it’s a problem now. That’s what this post is saying.
Though with a difference that multiple centers exist, rather than exclusively one.
Also for those of us in the USA there are so many other life-threatening additional considerations to add: e.g. if we join Piefed.ca then what happens when the USA decides to invade Canada, so either communication gets cut off or people who use this social media get rounded up onto a convention camp?
Thank you for your service Pug o7
Hi I'm new here. I have no idea what's going on!
Hello ~~New Here~~ BarnWolf, good to have you! :)
PugJesus is a local legend. Loved by many, despised by some, and always good for educating the unwashed masses (me) in history.
It's gonna be a whole lot more lonely without you, PugJesus, but I'll always suggest to take health and sanity before fame.
See ya, Space Cowboy! <3
PieFed is another federated threaded forum software like Lemmy, though just within the last week greatly surprised people by switching gears to be less like traditional social media that welcomes lots of engagement. The changes were not announced in advance, not something that can be opted out of (except by migration to another instance, which is what PugJesus is saying he will not consider doing) and are quite unpopular overall.
None of THAT background stuff will affect you on Lemmy.World, except that you'll see a quieter network overall, especially now that PugJesus is leaving us.
Overall it is perhaps best to use the Threadiverse not as your sole or possibly even primary social media but as one among several, as this one is struggling (post).
None of THAT background stuff will affect you on Lemmy.World, except that you’ll see a quieter network overall, especially now that PugJesus is leaving us.
Honestly not having "all" flooded with memes might leave room for some actual conversations to breathe but also chasing karma on the fediverse is wild
It's not about karma, really. There are other reasons to upvote things. Over on Mastodon/the twitterlike side of fedi, stars/"likes" don't do /anything/ but tell the OP you liked their post, and are used widely as a social thing. (There is a total star count on posts, but stars don't get federated to other servers besides the poster's, so it's only accurate if you actually go to the poster's instance and look there.)
-- Frost
True... but why would restricting daily votes deal at all with that issue?
On PieFed I've used the Topic Areas to segregate things like News & Politics, and most meme communities, away from my Subscribed feed. Each Topic is but a click away where I can see all of it (regardless of community subscription or not), and I kid you not, actual POETRY manages to make it into my feed!!
So there are other ways to separate memes from other content. Like paid Lemmy 3rd-party apps, or Blaze would use an army of alts, one for each topic area that he wanted to see that day.
Even worse, if someone like PugJesus would start off each day by voting for popular content like memes and news, and only then switch to niche communities to help then grow (a common enough workflow, than I often follow myself as well?), then chopping off votes after the quota is reached (currently: 240 per day iirc) would have the opposite effect than you say: memes and news would receive a much greater proportion of the votes while the tiny niche communities would receive less.
I absolutely do not discount the desire to have better sorting capabilities - on THAT I agree with you 100% that it would be nice to reach THAT goal - but the current implementation won't get you there, plus will have many negative consequences besides. Such as reduced funding support for PieFed overall, and more people choosing to use Lemmy or other alternatives.
I didn't say anything about votes, you said it would be "quieter" without PugJesus reposting memes, but I think "quiet" is in the ear of the beholder. Some of us prefer quality to artificial activity.
Oh yes for sure - beauty is most definitely in the eye of the beholder. Some people might prefer to spin up an instance and remove all votes from it, preferring to browse solely by community and/or All (related: some might disable only downvotes but retain upvotes). Other people might prefer to disable even comments, preferring to use the Threadiverse as an RSS reader, link aggregator, without any of the pesky social interaction - that's not what I personally want but if someone wants that... then fine, go for it?
"Quieter" there was a modifier for the previous word "affect" - i.e., how the downstream effects would impact the person being replied to there, not a value judgement but an explanation of noticeable changes.
I'm perfectly fine with an instance admin tuning their personal instance however they choose - e.g. blocking the major posters in memes and news communities, if they want a lower internet bill and to sort through content how they wish.
That said, this change in the PieFed software was VERY unexpected, not announced almost at all, not transparent at all, and rolled out by default to impact all upgrades to the v1.7 codebase. PieFed.social is NOT someone's personal instance - it is the very flagship instance of the entire PieFed subset of the Threadiverse. So some level of prior expectations are to be expected to come into play in regards to what settings it will choose to use - especially if those are subject to change with little to no notice, and with such major impacts upon the people who have chosen to use it?
PugJesus has donated an IMMENSE amount of time to enhance the Threadiverse, and now not only him but many of us are losing hope in not only PieFed but in this entire Threadiverse experiment overall.
This is quite impactful!
what you call enhance i call low effort slop that turns away new users BUT to each their own i guess
copying a jpg and posting it is not a high effort activity I'm sorry it just drowns out other types of content
Maybe you should look at PugJesus's posts before calling it low effort slop:
https://lemmy.world/u/PugJesus@piefed.social?page=1&sort=New&view=Posts
Map of China 400BC
Napoleonic forces in Russia
Meme about Year of Five Emporers
That's the spirit!
Some people want USA politics, others want to go a single fucking minute without having it shoved into our faces, and everywhere in-between.
It's been so nice that the Threadiverse provides a platform where we can all get along. Though huge major cracks are tearing it apart.
Welcome!
F. Is this in response of the vote quota?
Always enjoyed your posts and explanations. Hope to see you back here one day or another. Take care!
I will miss your content, but if you need a break please go be healthy. Come back when it feels good again.
How does the Piefed vote limit effect your communities there, Pug? Do you believe that most people will have already reached their limit per day and prevent them from upvoting any submissions on your comms?
The Piefed vote limit fundamentally screws my own user experience into a deeply frustrating one. Many of my upvotes are towards comments and replies on my own posts, so being unable to interact with a large number of my notifications, beyond some comment like "Thank you!" that becomes asinine after the 15th time or so in a day, makes my experience incredibly shitty.
If you're asking "Why not migrate your account but keep the comms on Piefed.social?", then the issue remains, it's just less obvious on my end. The vote limiting in Piefed.social affects non-Piefed.social users; the instance would simply not count a, for example, Piefed.world PugJesus vote after the daily limit was hit. I could split my votes between multiple accounts, but I'm not sanguine that that won't be coded against in a future update; and it also, again, makes my user experience shittier.
... as well as doubts as to how this will effect the long-term trajectory of Piefed.social, including its longevity, and a desire to not have comms I run on a self-sabotaging instance that will damage both the comms' health and potentially end with me having to migrate from a Kbin-esque collapse anyway at a later date.
Hm. Are you sure you'd be drastically effected by this change? I just counted the comments made on all the posts you made 9 days ago (all made in the same day) as 73 (though I'm unsure what the average you would receive in a day is). Assuming you upvote every single one of those comments, that still leaves you 167 votes left over in that day for posts and comments in threads not made by you.
Do you have a rough idea of how many upvotes you may leave a day/session on lemmy?
No clue, but I hit the limit before the vote limit was even announced. I went to the Matrix channel, confused as hell, thinking it was a bug, and got told it was intentional.
In any case, 73 comments is without particularly discussion-heavy posts. On the 30th of June, for example, I had 93 comments in my posts on HistoryMemes alone, not including any of my other comms - or engagement on posts on the comm that aren't mine, or my engagement on comms I don't moderate.
Devastated and probably not too far behind you at this point.
I really enjoyed your posts.
Will miss your Political Compass Memes among other things...
Take care of yourself and best of luck for whatever awaits you next!
My 2c on the issue, every software is moulded by the preferences of the developer(s) and its server admin. Sorry that your search for a permanent threadiverse home didn't work out in the end for you. Hoping that a portable and independent ActivityPub federated identity system will be a thing in the not so distant future to help ease the moving process.
Aww, you will be sorely missed, do take care
If we see you again in the future I do hope your time away will have treated you well
There's only one constant in life. And that's change. Take the time to focus on yourself and important things first. And if all this bullshit is still here in a few years. We'll see you then. It's always good to step back from this online stuff and realize sometimes it's not as important as we make it. But yes I don't blame you with all the different communities and not wanting to migrate then again.
Host your own?
What's another good instance that isn't Lemmy and backed by tankies?
i run a public onramp (not a lot of local content, wide open federation) instance https://moist.catsweat.com/
We're on pawb.social and it's chill. Buncha furries though. Which is a plus for us!
(It also runs on Basically Lemmy, though they forked it because of the devs being crappy.)
-- Frost
ShitJustWorks seems fine.
My issue with some, but not all, of them is I tend to run into tankies posing as libertarians. Which is just as bad if not a little worse because many are just confused individuals.
But of a generalization, but it unsettlingly common.
Tankies and libertarians are both conservatives. Different circus - same clowns. They have a chosen ingroup that's righteous and correct and handsome, and any argument-shaped sentences are just shuffling cards to justify that mandatory conclusion. Things are good because they do them.
To be honest I have not noticed many of either on SJW. Tankies aplenty on ML, an undercurrent on dbzer0, the rare dingus on anarchist.nexus. Libertarians? There's two guys who don't post anymore. I think they first came here for the same reason I did - overbearing admins on other instances.
Unless you're thinking of Universal Monk, but that motherfucker is an infectious disease.
What's another good instance that isn't Lemmy and backed by tankies?
Ironically that sentiment is precisely what has driven these developments. The fact that it's now even causing the user who runs MWOG this kind of grief is just laying it on thick.
Beehaw
I'm only subscribed to like 1-2 Beehaw communities, and every time I see a response on a post there, there's that little autopost telling me that Beehaw has superior levels of discussion and I better watch what I say. So I cringe a bit and just skip it.
Come to think of it, I should just unsubscribe to those Beehaw communities. There, done.
Twitter?
Out of the tankie frying pan and into the nazi fire...
😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭
Gonna miss you, Pug.
Dangit.
To quote Robin Scherbatsky from HIMYM:
"No. No, no, no, no, no, no. <PugJesus>, you cannot do this to me. No! No, no, no!"
The Fediverse needs more HIMYM references. Also, I should start a re-watch of that.
Where did they say that?
Many posts about it lately but here's a good start:
Good summary: https://piefed.zip/c/home@piefed.zip/p/1635935/can-we-remove-the-vote-limiter-implemented-in-v1-7
"main" post: https://piefed.social/c/fediverse@piefed.social/p/2190040/who-decides-what-you-see-on-the-fediverse-a-look-at-voting-patterns
addressing the controversy: https://piefed.social/c/piefed_meta/p/2200155/improvement-for-the-vote-quota-implementation
“Who decides what you see on the fediverse?”
Rimu: I do!
Tbf he is far from the only instance admin/Threadiverse software developer that does this.
But... yeah. That's sorta his role even, while ours is to either agree or not.
It's like being a self-righteous ideologue is a prerequisite to make threadiverse software.
Unironically, it might take such a mindset to see the world, ask "what if it were THIS way instead?", and then go out and MAKE that change happen.
Dessalines had it, and we all benefitted from him making the Threadiverse, even though his ideology would like nothing more than to see every single person living in a Western civilization to (literally) die. Still, kudos for not simply rolling over and taking it up the ass from Reddit, and instead making something better. Or that one day will become better - even if exceedingly slowly.
And Rimu as well: it takes guts to ignore what people say to simply "accept the status quo", and be the change we'd like to see in the world. That said, I don't agree with every decision made there by far, and I fear that this authoritarian mindset is going to get the project killed off. Like, it's good to stick to your guns when you KNOW that you are CORRECT, but to do it just on a whim... yeah it hits entirely differently then.
There was also Ernst of Kbin, but it basically died off already. Yes Mbin exists but with participant numbers that make it a tiny footnote in the description of the Threadiverse more than a major player.
Im having a real hard time understanding and following this whole thing if im honest. Is there a pr/code i can look at tp understand what is actually happening at the moment? Im just not getting it.
Now if you try to cast over a certain amount of up/downvotes a day, you will not be allowed to by the code.
The Piefed staff has said that the motivation is in keeping people from voting 'too much' - ie, that users who use Piefed 'too much' should use it 'less' in the interest of 'fairness' to other users.
Even if this is reversed, that attitude - not the first time the Piefed staff has expressed that thought, but the first time they've actually implemented something non-optional along those lines - suggests that issues like this will continue popping up, even if this voting limit ends up being removed by public outcry.
"When people tell you who they are, believe them the first time", and all that jazz.
Interesting! Not that i dont believe you but is there a PR or code sample i can see? Id like to see what the actual code is doing. Thank you for the explanation.
I may be able to curtail a pr to address or at least make this instance specific.
It is, at present, instance-specific, or at least, opt-out by admins. My issue is that I don't have the morale to migrate all my comms to another Piefed instance. I'm done. The instability in the Fediverse has done me in. I'm not stable enough myself to deal with it.
Please don’t go, I love your content.
Ah so this is just something on this server. Carry on.
Ive found my own infa is the most stable. Gotosocial is my favorite at the moment. Or at least the most fun.
Almost all of the fedi is volunteer and making negative money. Burning money in big buckets.
GL! Hope your next adventure is a fun one.
Everything is efferial. Even our silly messages on the internet.
No, this affects each and every PieFed instance that upgrades to v1.7 (I sent you in a different reply here the exact lines of code). PugJesus' instance PieFed.social uses the now-default value of 240 as the daily vote quota. Admins may opt-out by setting the quota differently, however this will only impact votes accepted on your current instance. It will not affect votes accepted by other PieFed instances. e.g. if your instance uses 500 rather than 240, then someone looking at the identical content from PieFed.social will not see any of the second half of your daily votes: you will be able to OFFER them, and Lemmy will receive all of them, but each PieFed instance chooses itself how much it will receive or not.
And btw this information is not presented anywhere to show what these values are across each instance. Like the caps on posts and comments, it is silently effective, but not transparent in the least. So like the whole argument about whether defederations destroy the foundational principles of the ActivityPub Protocol-using Threadiverse, this new issue too is going to wreak havoc on the acceptance of PieFed in the wider Threadiverse & Fediverse communities. :-(
"migrate all my comms" what does that mean and why would you do it?
Re-creating the comms I run on a different instance.
Most of my activity is in those comms, and there's not a lot in the way of alternatives for most of them, topic-wise.
All votes, up or down, whether from Lemmy or the local or a different PieFed instance, are now restricted by an admin-set quota value. This was quietly reported outside of Matrix channels, buried into part of the 1.7 release of the code - see the exact relevant line at https://codeberg.org/rimu/pyfedi/src/commit/7e10e92de2cf271088b76a31d725cad67afe08aa/app/activitypub/routes.py#L2335.
This value can be adjusted however the admins desire (e.g. the PieFed.zip admins say they have set it to a ridiculously high value to essentially disable it, and other PieFed instances are coming out strongly against it), but by default is set at 240 (https://codeberg.org/rimu/pyfedi/src/branch/main/config.py#L191, thanks to flamingos@feddit.uk for reporting these lines of code). As in you can vote 240 times per day before you are blocked from doing so further. Logged-in PieFed users can see how much of their local instance quota they've used so far, but (i) no numeric values are presented, only a visual bar where you have to guess at where you are (e.g. do I have 10 votes left now? 100? 2?), (b) this will only show you the LOCAL instance quota - not the quotas of OTHER instances, and in particular the vote quota seems applied to incoming votes from Lemmy, Mbin, Mastodon, nodeBB, etc. platforms as well as PieFed instances, and (c) none of this is explained anywhere, on any page, e.g. there is currently no way to tell which instances use those quotas, nor what values they are currently set at.
And I thought I recalled hearing that there are caps already on posts and comments too, but I haven't studied the code and I think this is not well known, if it is even true rather than me misremembering or misunderstanding something. PieFed seems to be going to some effort to limit its users ability to interact with the Threadiverse. Which obviously for some admins is going to be a big plus, to keep costs down by silencing all the "noise" from messy human interactions (although I don't fully understand this: if that is what you want then why not just stop pulling in votes altogether, and simply sort by New?) but the manner in which this implementation has been rolled out... leaves PieFed open to an immense amount of criticism.
The short version - 10 people (0.02% of us) were casting 60% of all votes. I stopped it.
Why does that matter? Some people want to engage and some don't?
And the long version is here. The reasoning is flawed because the impact of votes on the public discourse has diminishing returns, if someone is voting on so much content they're most likely voting on stuff people wouldn't see regardless of their vote; in the meantime I bet most of that "tail" of users who vote only a bit focus mostly on posts that show up in the front page.
I also think this is the wrong way to do it. It would be more sensible to encourage other users to speak their mind more often, than to arbitrarily limit how much is "too much voting".
Or, it would be fine to discard people's votes in the sense of a new scoring algorithm that discounts them. That would be opt-in to a new feature that those of us who don't want it could simply ignore.
But to arbitrarily simply THROW VOTES AWAY? Damn that's unfriendly. Especially when the culture on the Threadiverse has been absolutely begging for activity since before the Rexodus even, while now all of a sudden in less than a week that virtue turned sour and actively became a vice?
Tbf there may be stuff that I am unaware of - like a coordinated campaign to make Russia look good at Ukraine's expense? THAT I think most people could agree with deserves shutting down. But upvotes of cat pictures? LET THE CAT-VOTES COMMENCE! i.e. a signal, conveying that...
Even if the top voters were a problem (I don't think they are), there are multiple ways to address this than to stop them from voting past a certain limit. For example, a pop-up asking if you really want to issue yet another vote that day, if you voted past a certain limit; it would get old really fast, but not outright prevent you from saying what you want.
If votes were made public, then people could make informed decisions on whether to block the top voters - up or down. Votes are inherently public data anyway, just hidden from view by most interfaces.
Alternately, we already have an Attitude score, just add a new Engagement score to highlight people who engage more vs. less? If people want to block users who engage a ton with posts, they can again make an INFORMED DECISION as to whether they want to do so.
As it is now though, PieFed hides downvotes (merging them together with upvotes), blocks lemvotes.org to hide all voting data from PieFed.social, and now full-on throws these additional contributions into the garbage bin. All of which would be fine, if they had been transparently performed. However, I note the language of "Newbie friendly: Yes" for Piefed.social at https://piefed.social/auth/instance_chooser, which would seem to imply that someone coming in from Reddit could readily adopt this as their social media platform? The truth though is that they need to read a fair bit about the culture and various sub-cultures here, and most importantly read the unwritten rules, like how this is not aimed to be a social media replacement (which is HUGE news to me btw!!!), and instead... I dunno exactly, but maybe it's aiming to become a Mastodon replacement? Or an old-school forum board one, just federated? It can be whatever it wants, but IMHO it needs to actually SAY WHAT THAT IS, or else risk immense disappointment when people find out the hard way.
As PugJesus did, though many others now will be spared that, by avoiding PieFed in the future?
And I need to face facts myself: we are a Linux forum, and we will never be anything else. I've gone back to Reddit over the last couple of days and rediscovered what having CONTENT is like!! Whole swaths of events happening in the world that you never hear so much as a whisper about here. Rarely - I could count on one or two hands - you see someone sharing true OC like a comic artist, but the vast majority of "content" in this place seems to just be circle-jerking. Do you think I am wrong in these musings? The ONE thing that (I thought) it had going for it was it being more open and welcoming. And maybe some instances - like blahaj - still are, but PieFed.social seems to be signaling HARD that it is not interested in "fluff", and now wants to be serious (like Mastodon), despite having next to no actual content to offer in that regard? I desperately wish that I am wrong here...
You say that like it needed to happen. Sure some people may be too liberal with their votes. Perhaps though those little stray upvotes to people who otherwise wouldn't have gotten much of anything might mean something. Might even mean a lot. Some people are always going to have an outsized influence in communities. And you cannot have a flourishing community by trying to eliminate that.
I'm all for eliminating coordinated Mass voting. But I think limiting your most active participants is a shooting yourself in the foot sort of move.
It's probably true that the Threadiverse is run mostly by power users, but that's not a flaw that should be addressed with technical limitations. It's just a matter of general inactivity.
I set up my Epic Games community years ago, but it has attracted less than a handful posters. MeanwhileOnGrad gets a lot of engagement but many posts are from cm, and most are probably from just a few users, while goat was the only moderator until becoming inactive recently. Again, just a matter of the Threadiverse barely growing (as evidence by the total MAU number being the same as 3 years ago) and consisting mainly of lurkers rather than something to pin on the ones who are actually active.
There's no question that PugJesus is not a bot, so if the limit hinders them, I'd have no reason to doubt that or want to tell them to just use the platform differently. If we are to talk disparity, people from Hexbear and the like tend to use alts, so they're the ones to benefit from the change.
It's just kind of bad policy in general. As someone who moderates a community or two. I tend to upvote most engagement. It's just really a basic way to encourage engagement. It hasn't traditionally cost you anything. And when people see other people responding to their posts it makes them want to post more. Etc. If you have a number of communities and you do this. It will quickly blow through your limit in this case.
To be clear. I think rimu has good intentions. But to be further clear. I think they also rush into things like this. Looking at things from a purely numbers perspective while neglecting the human perspective. Programming and numbers are very logical. People are anything but.
Guess the solution is to punish everyone else!
lol. lmao even.
(Also a short version.)
Strange! Bots?
I don't think so, they seem to be real.
https://piefed.social/c/fediverse@piefed.social/p/2190040/who-decides-what-you-see-on-the-fediverse-a-look-at-voting-patterns
https://piefed.social/c/piefed_meta/p/2200155/improvement-for-the-vote-quota-implementation#post_replies
https://piefed.social/comment/11992946
https://piefed.social/post/2198455#comment_12057290
good riddance
Graphene: and the beatings will continue until moral improves.
Just flip back to one of your other accounts.
My posting is centered around a number of comms that are on Piefed.social. Thus, I'd have to move those comms if I wanted to keep using the Fediverse as I was, and that's an arduous process. Basically building back up from scratch. I've done it three times so far, once when moving from Reddit, once involuntarily (when Kbin shut down), and once when moving from .world.
I just don't have a fourth in me. And even if this reverses, I have no reason to believe that the Piefed admins won't try something like this again, since they've made it clear it's a fundamental part of their thinking about the future of their instance.
Even if I did have the motivation for a fourth migration, the whole notion of instability from decisions at-the-top in an instance means my experiences on the Fediverse have made me wary of how ephemeral any work I put in is going to be.
I wasn't a power user on Reddit. I wasn't even a particularly active lurker. So... I'll go back to not being an active member of online communities. Return to doomscrolling Facebook and Tumblr without participation, I guess. Game more. I enjoyed sharing history on the Fediverse more than all of that, but not if my user experience is going to be shitty or require a reworking of my communities every year. At that point, I'd rather just keep to myself, and the Fediverse doesn't have enough content for me to just be a satisfied lurker on here.
So. I'm out. Sorry to everyone who enjoyed me. I enjoyed sharing trivia, and had a good time here, but I can't continue under these conditions. I wish the best to the Fediverse as a whole.
What If I build you your own instance on my network and we federate from that?
I appreciate the offer, but that runs into
I just don’t have a fourth [migration] in me.
and
Even if I did have the motivation for a fourth migration, the whole notion of instability from decisions at-the-top in an instance means my experiences on the Fediverse have made me wary of how ephemeral any work I put in is going to be.
Right, sure, but I would spin up the infra and hand you the keys.
Keep your account active for two more weeks and I'll DM you details?
I'll even handle the migration, all you have to do is post.
Right, sure, but I would spin up the infra and hand you the keys.
Being an admin is more than I signed up for, I have no understanding of server shit, and that just means the eventual possibility of instability is on me, as I'm not in the best health - or best country - to begin with. Health is what wrecked poor Ernest and Kbin, not decisions on his part, after all.
On top of that, the issue of migration I'm talking is not spinning up a new comm - that takes all of five minutes. It's building the community back up. People don't migrate with the community migration - comms 'catch' many casual users over the course of their existence who are nonetheless vital for its day-to-day functioning.
I appreciate that you want me here, but it's certainly not that I feel driven off by the community. I just don't have it in me to continue in unstable conditions, and all I see from the Fediverse, after my experiences here, is instability or the possibility thereof.
I just don't have it in me to continue in unstable conditions, and all I see from the Fediverse, after my experiences here, is instability or the possibility thereof.
Life is entropy, I guess. Sorry if that adds an unneeded existential crisis to what you're already dealing with, but it's the truth. Stable systems/conditions are a myth.
I know you said you don't have another migration in you, and I'm not going to try to convince you otherwise. But if you ever change your mind, sopuli seems pretty chill. I honestly don't know much about it, but that's exactly what I mean. I've literally never seen or heard anything from the sopuli admins. For all I know they don't even exist. They do of course, somewhere in the background, but they're very hands-off. I think they're based in Finland.
Life is entropy, I guess. Sorry if that adds an unneeded existential crisis to what you’re already dealing with, but it’s the truth. Stable systems/conditions are a myth.
Yeah, but some conditions are less unstable than others. I don't mind so much participating in something that has a decent chance of being radically different - or dead - in ten years. In one year? That's... a level of instability that is much less appealing.
Absolute stability might be a myth, but there's still a difference between modern Finland and Sengoku Jidai Japan.
I know you said you don’t have another migration in you, and I’m not going to try to convince you otherwise. But if you ever change your mind, sopuli seems pretty chill. I honestly don’t know much about it, but that’s exactly what I mean. I’ve literally never seen or heard anything from the sopuli admins. For all I know they don’t even exist. They do of course, somewhere in the background, but they’re very hands-off. I think they’re based in Finland.
Honestly, my move to Lemmy.world was only out of the hope that Kbin's demise might be temporary. I'm... in general averse to instances using Lemmy, not because of admins, but because of the devs. Even right now, there's a massive banner of the genocide-denying fascist devs of Lemmy begging for money on Sopuli.
My move from Piefed is based on my user experience (and, to a lesser degree, the user experience of others, which will likely inhibit growth and the long-term health of the system). My move from Lemmy was fundamentally on moral grounds - I'd prefer to minimize the help I give to fascists like the devs, even indirectly.
I've certainly never heard anything bad about the Sopuli admins, but I'm definitely not moving back to a Lemmy instance.
Just a suggestion. If it's too much work just don't. Don't worry about it, don't fret over it, don't migrate. You always have the option to just let things be what they will be. And there's nothing wrong with that. Unless the whole point for you was moderating building and maintaining communities, and not necessarily the posts you make. If it's getting in the way of enjoying yourself. Perhaps you don't need it. I know for myself it's something I've had to face a few times. Planning a workable balance between passion, obsession, and reality. No matter how terminally online we might be. Reality will always win in the end. I've absolutely had some issues with myself and burnout outside the fedi recently. But I've only stepped back. Not disappeared.
It takes like 5 seconds, you dont really get notifications on sold stuff
Unfortunately, the core issue in migration isn't my account, but all the comms on Piefed.social that I run. Building a community back up so that posts have some basic level of engagement instead of languishing with three people having seen them is... a large task, and one I'm just not up to doing for a fourth time.
Fuck. That sounds like an awful chore.
I just want to say "thank you" for the rough Roman memes and the artefacts. I really enjoy those.
lol, isnt the point you want more, unless you want to be a tankie/conservative inclusive instances. is that what the staments guy was complaining about these instances.
I migrated 3 times this month. From world to blahaj (that one missing downvotes) to piefied.
I'm kinda done with this "fediverse" thing to be honest. It's cool and all that you can "just create own instance if you don't like it", but that like linux — we have shit load of distros and none of them work.
I am sorry that you are having such a hard time finding your way here. Fwiw initial migrations are common and relatively easy as you first find your way, and the vast majority of people here will tell the same story.
If you want to try just one more, PieFed.zip or Lemmy.zip (run by the same people) are the usual default instances to recommend to people these days. The latter would not be directly affected by it at all and the former could in theory except they've stated that they will reject this particular setting and disable it. They are SUPERB general-purpose instances if you aren't looking for anything particularly specific. (Personally I'm a little put off by the usage of the .zip suffix as it has ties to Google, but realize that I'm probably both over- and under-thinking that, so please ignore my paranoia:-P)
Tbh, your choice of 3rd party app has a much greater impact on your experiences here than anything else. I don't have much experience with those but do like Voyager - in fact I'm typing this in Voyager now. Perhaps give it a try?:-) It works with both Lemmy and PieFed so kinda doesn't matter which of those two that you choose.
No ads!! People are nicer here!! Well, some are dicks as always but far less often than Reddit, it feels like. I hope you find a reason to stay. At least, I hope that this internal drama isn't the reason that you decide to go - we argue bc we care about it. Be advised that the often-spoken secret to getting along in the Threadiverse/Fediverse is: block early, block often! On Reddit that has no chance of actually working, outside of small niche communities, but this is a small enough space that it ACTUALLY WORKS. Btw you can export and import your block lists as you migrate accounts, if you want to do so.
- The issue of using .zip already in your comment — it runs by the same people. Moronic decisions is not "if", it's "when";
- Already using voyager. It's not the reason I had to migrate: on world some admin wrote to me directly, after I blocked his community (it was full of propaganda, doesn't particularly matter, that why we have block button) and insisted to use lang filters if I "don't like it" — that weird behavior aside I actually went and checked lang filters, they were broken. On top of that, apparently world decided to block some instances about piracy, which is not cool with me. On blahaj.zone mods heavily against downvotes and looks like will never ,add them to main instance. They will try to add 1:10 ratio as a test to (I forgor instance name), where dislike will "weight" 0.1 of like. Which is kinda stupid. And here on piefed you already know about issues.
- "No ads" not really a problem — I use ublock on PC and patched aps on Android
- People, well, they are people. They are the same everywhere tbh. Maybe currently they are mostly belong to one group (like politically for example), but like, that not a good thing — it just creates a bubble of that interest. As one of example — apperently my comment about linux was offensive and due to high amount of not so well educated linux users, they drown me in downvotes. That wouldn't happen on reddit even with comment like that, cause there you have more realistic representation of linux users, which is like, 1:10. Living in a bubble is not cool (but you do you).
That being said, I'm not against fediverse in general, I'm just frustrated as same as OP, with instance admins who decided to shoot themselves in the foot.
- You seem to imply that the admins of Lemmy.zip are morons - I have not heard this, can you point me to something to read in this regard? The Threadiverse tends to rake instance admins over the coals fairly regularly, so for me to NOT have heard ill of them yet, I took it as a good sign!
- Sure, I was just covering all the major bases there!:-)
Speaking of, the major thing about the Fediverse is that after being banned, you CAN at least still join some other instance, or even ultimately spin one up on your own! (impossible on the likes of Reddit, X(hitter), Meta, etc.)
Btw if you did want to spin up your own instance, I've heard it strongly recommend that PieFed is far easier to set up and maintain than Lemmy. The preferences of its developer team don't mean much when you have total control over what features you want to see deployed or not.:-P
I hope you find something you can enjoy. Don't forget to heavily touch grass irl too - not instead of but in addition to online social media - as it is much more rewarding in the end.
Lol Troll Harder
What part of this is "troll"?
I can buy that you were frustrated with lemmy. But the bit about how ZERO Linux distros work is just pure bait, you're on the Fediverse my dude! :-D
My point was exactly as it reads: none of distros works, I say that as someone who uses linux for 15 years now, plus someone who contributed to open source projects and linux kernel (alto, not directly, it was just some conf file for touchscreen on old tablet). The few exceptions of linux distros that work well overall — are corporate managed, like Fedora. To be fair to linux, none of the other OS'es also work in my opinion, all of the IT constantly in a broken state, but maybe I'm just like this cause my job is a tech support.
So yeah, my point reads like "random people that create instances on a whim, cause they were frustrated with rules of other instances (similar to how linux distros often created) — not a good solution of a problem".
