sabreW4K3
Green EnergyHope they are not using the old trains, where the toilet just lets everything onto the tracks hihi
As a practicing solar engineer, I don't like the idea of applying solar panels linearly because they can benefit much more from centralization meaning applying panels to an area, but to be honest I think it's cool that humans are discovering new ways to use these things.
Sunlight is everywhere, so bring on the solarpunk!
One train even swerved to run over a solar panel that was getting away. /s
Out of all places where you could possibly place a solar panel, this seems to me like one of the least practical ones. It's almost all drawbacks
Even just a foot to the left and to the right, they can install double the number of panels while avoiding most of the downsides.
air currents from trains, especially high speed ones throw rocks and debris everywhere.
Three years ago EEVBlog already published a Video why this is a terrible idea: https://youtu.be/7vItnxhWRqw
Im not convinced much has changed since then. As a Swiss citizen it's a bit disappointing that a apparent cash grab like this is possible.
And this is why they only put 100m of panels, to test and validate the idea before commiting to any large scale project. As a swiss citizen too, I'm on the contrary quite happy to see those test projects to give a chance to new technologies (or ways to utilize said technologies) before any real investment.
I think the biggest limitations will be security, someone will definitely be trying to steal them
Isn’t this the case with all existing panels?
Tbh this video has poor arguments:
- solar roads startups closed (no shit sherlock. Many startups close everyday)
- dust and wires (sure. However this is an engineering problem and can be solced)
- south corea does it as roof top (what’s the point here?) And that’s it. No real argumenr visible. Just a video for getting ad fees imho.
This guy was never to Switzerland.
Dust --> attach a brush infront of the train
Im not sure we use the machine that he showed in the video to replace the gravel. At the same time it looks like the tracks stay untouched. Its not something that is done often.
He talks about huge shipments of coal in Switzerland xd WHAT THE HELLY ??!!(the 1800s called, they want their environmental policy back)
He wants private citizens to plaster their roofs and their soil with solar. Well they can i guess but its their decision. Just know that the cows in Switzerland usually graze on grass. The railway is 100% Eidgenossen owned.
2% is 2%. People cry about every Rappen on the powerbill. I wouldnt mind paying 2% less and im not even a company.
In the comments they talk about the toilet releasing the waste on the tracks. In Switzerlands trains theres WC's (water closets). So the sun will evaporate the waste. Also we dont want to eat from the panels its just to generate electricity.
So i found an argument against every argument of his and it took me 10 minutes.
I respect the effort tho it was fun to watch.
Are Balkonkraftwerke legal in Switzerland?
Yes, and i see them often even in places where theres not much sun.
I don't know whether their owners track their production for estimating ROI, but I'm getting 1.7 MWh/year from a 2 kWp DIY in a nonoptimal orientation with some shading, which is worth it at 0.3 EUR/kWh (ok, if your meter can't run backwards you will need some storage, which has also a cost).
Really long and thin strips that can't be angled. They can only be serviced while the track is closed and need to survive whatever debris a train might fling at them. Is this really the best way to place them?
Solar freaking railways.
For the life of me I don’t understand why people are putting them anywhere before every rooftop is covered with them. Roofs are dead space and unlikely to have debris issues (at least compared to a railway).
Roofs are actually not that great. Installation is expensive because you are working at height. Roof angles and directions are also not ideal on many houses. Compare it to a simple installation on a field: You just take some corn field, stop growing corn there and can put your panels on some cheap holders and you're good. You can access and service them without the danger of falling from a roof. You can install them on an industrial scale instead of a few square meters on every single roof. You need only one electrical installation.
People love to cry about the loss of agricultural space, but currently we are growing a lot of corn to convert it to fuel or to put it into biogas installations. If you convert those field to solar, you will get more energy from them. And the loss of a big monoculture that is using a lot of pesticides is also great.
You can still grow stuff in them with agrivoltaics. You don't have to lose the productive land below it
And even if you do not: It's better for the environment to not grow corn and just have some grass underneath the solar panels.
You can lay them down and remove them again and also clean them with automation. There are power lines nearby as well as consumers, electric trains.
Installing on roofs is manual labor and needs electricians. Which is why you see so many solar farms by the roadside.
It's companies trying to make a quick buck. They tried this with roads too.
Obviously every home should have them first and all newly built homes should be built with solar efficiency in mind.
Or in parking lots. It would also have the added benefit of providing cover for cars.
You need some serious concrete and/or steel hardware to build a carpark roof that can hold the solar panels without easily being damaged by cars or broken by strong wind, so that massively inflates the costs. If you had a state owned company producing cheap solutions for this it could work though.
I don't think they're a lot of surface parking on Switzerland like in the US
Every parking lot needs approval of the location, its probably a a pain in the ass, and would disrupt parking while being built which impacts sales (or will be perceived to anyway). If this worked, you only need to deal with a small group of people for a very large space.
Meanwhile...it's mandatory in France for any newly built parking lot over a certain size.
Thats a good way to get it to start happening as it avoids a lot of the problems
I do occasionally see parking lots with solar here in LA! So it is happening in some places.
Deployment on rails is dirty cheap. Can be highly automated and you have highvolt power line just a few meters away.
If you put solar upon your roof, 2/3 of the costs are labor costs. The material bill encompasses electrics, mounting system, cables, and pv panels that can get reduced on railways as well.
Cheap if you only count the cost of plopping them down and walking away, the train could kick up enough dust and debris that efficiency is impacted significantly more than installing them on a roof would have been, necessitating installing new ones sooner.
It’s all theory. That’s why I think it’s worth a try and learn the facts.
Edit: A rough estimation with averages: 10 kWp gives 11kwh a year in Swiss, 1kwp panel costs 500€, 1kwh energy costs 0,28 EUR in Swiss. Panel material costs for 10 kWp is 5,000€ and earns you 3,080€ (11,000*0,28€) yearly. This shows the value of the idea.
What if the train runs a street sweeper brush behind it to clean them off every time?
Yes exactly, it makes no sense!
It seems like the sort of naive gimmick one might expect from a MAD Magazine cartoonist, or Elon Musk on a ketamine binge. It would work to an extent for a while, though whether the amount of electricity generated would justify the maintenance costs to keep it going is another matter.
The arguments against it are the power yield of a panel pointing upwards, and presumably covered with dirt shed by passing trains. That said, it would suffer less impact damage than photovoltaic roads/bike paths floated elsewhere (the occasional rock impact, as opposed to constant traffic). Also, there is a lot of track, so even if a segment generates little power, it adds up. Not enough to power electric trains, though possibly enough to offset the power bill after operating costs are taken into account.
I’m guessing this installation is an experiment to quantify these figures rather than a commitment to roll this out more broadly.
I’m guessing this installation is an experiment to quantify these figures rather than a commitment to roll this out more broadly.
No need to guess, it's right there in the article.
The whole point of the exercise is to put solar panels in the not best location. Otherwise this article would be about wireless power transmission from space.
They can only be serviced
I don't think this should be a concern, I've had them on my roof for 3 years now and not touched them once
Is this really the best way to place them?
Seems so:
But this is just a pilot program. If the system works safely on a busy rail line, it could point to a new way of expanding solar power without covering farmland, forests or mountain slopes with panels. That’s perhaps important in Switzerland, more so than in other places, where renewable energy is urgently needed, but new solar projects can face resistance when they move into cherished landscapes. NIMBY is sadly a global phenomenon.
There's literally gravel beside them in the picture that'd be a better spot 😭
It’s stupid and genius at once. So, worth a try.
Crazy cheap deployment, but I don't think those panels will stand up to it very well. The vibration is bad enough, but metal fragments are the real threat, I suspect. I've been in a few rail yards, and vehicles that habitually get parked close to rails that are in active service have paint damage from tiny metal chips flying off the rails and wheels. Unless they have some kind of replaceable clear shield, those panels will not just get dirty, they'll get slowly sandblasted till not much light is actually reaching the photovoltaic panel.
Also if it's a cargo train things fall off all the time. Walk along a train track and you will find a bunch of stuff
Sometimes a body
More info: https://www.groupe-sncf.com/en/innovation/solar-power-between-rails
The company behind it seems to have already tried it a year ago, and the project is in pilot phase until 2028
I too am launching a pilot program that will last until I'm of retirement age.
Switzerlands rail network is around 5300km long (source) if you cover around 50% of it, that gives roughly 500MWp installed capacity. A modern locomotive has 4-8MW. That gives you enough energy to power 80 locomotives under full load. I expect them to use much less power once in motion so it may be more in reality. That’s not nothing.
Does that figure account for the 90% power loss from pointing straight up?
Not to mention the constant dirt and debris, snow, tiny scratches and cracks from the high speed trains throwing metal shavings, rocks, random dropped bolts, grease, and everything else onto their surfaces?
Building a platform above the trains at whatever height the lowest bridge on that route is would allow them to change angle to track the sun, and keep them better protected
Gadgetbahn type shit
We could use the railing to transmit power but nah we have to use it to house power source
That's already the standard in Switzerland. The overhead line is the phase and the rails are ground.
Oh like trans? They have those overhead lines they use as third rail
In what world is it reasonable to put a several kilovolt line on the ground? Even subways have safety problems with the third rail.
Damn you want kilovolt? I was thinking few hundred at most. Over a few miles it would be fine to power like lights and low powered devices
There is usually a current present in the rails already
Either traction current, signalling current for track circuits, or both
Depending on the way the signalling system has been engineered
Hmmm neat. I guess those are high voltage signals
Definitely not
Sometimes in the order of mere milivolts
Clever use of land.
Who cleans the snow off?
Wind from trains? Maybe an attachment that brushes them off occasionally.
Stop thinking you are scaring the USians.
It's a nice thought but boy will it be a bummer when a single loose hook or bolt destroys like a hundred miles of renewable electrical infrastructure
For fucks sake, raise them above the track and angle them towards the sun.
"Researchers in Switzerland suggest almost wiping your ass in first-of-its-kind test"
This just seems silly
Silly Swedes...
Morons! Morons everywhere!
