To clarify, this is not a vote to defederate. This a call to instance admins to pledge for a mutual protection pact.

I came to say "every Lemmy drama day"

Reading this on lemmy.world and wondering what new online drama am I missing.

Did unjust defederation actually happen?

Keep the mods on tight leash please, otherwise the fuckers get powertripped too easily.

I have no nuanced take but you have my Aye.

Looks like I'll have to start a petition to my admins to defederate from themselves.

I'm on your side.

I don't look for hug boxes online but I always like to speak my mind. Who ever lets me do this.... is the place for me.

and so we tear eachother apart while corporations laugh

Wait the fuck did I miss

As a lemmy.world user, how can I help this cause?

I raise my pint to defederating from cringe.world!

I came here to make a joke about how LW removing themselves would be doing you a favor. Instead though I've gotten a semi-serious thought about a pact to defederate any instance that gets too big: either a set number of users, or maybe even a percentage of total Lemmy users.

aye!

What's the problem? If it's a shitty instance full of shitty people, why do you want to see their stuff so bad?

I'm using lemmy.world only because cant see porn db0 for some reason. I'd gladly use only db0 if the new nsfw instance would be visible there.

it's been pretty heartwarming to see the amount of support across fedi against the bad actors on .world and .social.

but I think it should be pointed out that some people seem to be under the impression this is a vote for defederation. instead, it's an invitation to forge a treaty between allied instances to defederate en masse if LW pulls more antagonistic bullying like they did this past week or so.

This seems reasonable.

I thought they'd decided to refederate? Isn't this just continuing the disagreement for no reason at this point? I'm completely against defederation unless absolutely necessary. The more fragmented it becomes the less the concept of the Fediverse actually exists, and it just becomes a bunch of random websites. The main reason I joined this instance was the lack of defederation and the lack of drama.

I'm not necessarily against the idea of a Fediverse wide boycott of LW if they do keep unnecessarily defederating smaller instances but I'm not convinced we need to have this discussion unless they demonstrate a clear pattern. Also due to their size unless the majority of other instances are on board its going to be completely ineffective.

Users on lemmy.world are mostly sound but they are a very undemocratic instance where an admin has oversized power and can act on a whim without consulting its users.

Hm to think of it they are quite an analogue for USA

I feel there needs to be a more nuanced federating system, wherein rogue admins can be banned from interacting with an instance and its users without splitting the whole fediverse apart. I dunno, that sounds like it creates other issues, but I'm all for the Canadian approach of bringing the middle powers together fwiw

As someone who has completely replaced Reddit with Lemmy cold turkey since the blackouts, LW is still absolutely massive and federating with them has made me feel much less detached from the ebb and flow of online culture even if it’s filtered through the self-selection bias of people who would actually sign up for Lemmy.

I think this entire fiasco is pissy, utterly unnecessary posturing by their admin. But my bar for whether someone is a full blooded apologist for crimes or just deeply socialized into accepting them is this litmus test: is this person genuinely in favor of me being murdered, or is this person simply German?

I am personally affected by the rapacious ideology that is Zionism. I cannot currently access my familial hometown, even though it’s north of the Litani, it’s unsafe. I am almost certainly in the Palantir repository of “fighting age” males. So I’m not just happy to ignore a distant problem. I don’t want to dox myself but I am a former emergency healthcare volunteer and had to be called in during that Wednesday two weeks ago to help with triaging all the injured. They were all civilians, many who who looked and talked like me, who spoke my exact dialect. I have personally lost four acquaintances in this war, all decent people, all civilians. Some of the beggar kids who I walk past on the street every day are also dead and I fucking cried looking at a cinder block where one of them used to sit. A building I lived next to as a student, three buildings down, in a safe fucking area in the middle of the city, got fucking erased. This is very real to me. I have witnessed a lot of human suffering on that Wednesday, about as much as during the entire hell pandemic + explosion summer.

My opinion is not more important because of my experience but I have had ample reason to examine who I’m willing to talk to and who I’m willing to avoid. Back on Reddit I would openly speak about this very sensitive subject in big threads, intentionally choosing more measured wording, and I would get a lot of positive responses from people who seemed to really not know the situation. Granted this was before the mask off phase of that place.

I think our instances, and Hexbear for that measure, are exemplary on this issue. Nobody is born deserving to be murdered. I also think wider, more conservalib users from the wider Lemmy ecosystem getting to see us unapologetically call crimes crimes, and genocide fans getting downvoted by everyone, including fellow users of their own instances, is very important. This is not an abstract political idea, this is a fucking excellent litmus test. Many of the cooler users eventually migrate to our instance, I think that’s awesome. I think being so willing to federate with mostly everyone above room temperature decency is important, let them see our politics, let them be mad that they have to confront horrible ideologies they have been born into. And if they voice support for this murderous ideology, or any other genocidal belief, in our communities, then our rules are clear. Let them feel confrontation.

That said there is one annoying Zionist user on our own instance constantly pissing in our nice community pool. This person has crossed the German line.

I don’t think we saw that with LW yet. I think nothing I’ve seen so far from their admins crosses the “Is this person evil or just fucking German?” line, specifically. The broader LW userbase is on the libby side but they are broadly well meaning and can learn and be valuable allies and friends. And the large volume of posts provides plenty of opportunity to have good conversations. I have a lot of goodwill for Hexbear, despite also not loving some of what is considered mainstream on there (although I understand it. Critical support is important. Ask ne how I fucking know. I still have a town for a reason.). But Hexbear is very insular. It’s the same 200 users most of the time. A lot of the discussion there is pretty good, and frankly CTH is probably the funniest community anywhere on Lemmy. Some of the most concise and accurate English-language writing on political currents in the Levant I’ve ever seen is on Hexbear. But I think our role as an instance is different. I like that we federate with both. I like that a lot actually. I don’t have one account for shitposts, one for memes, one for saluting the blahaj flag, and one for hanging out with the MLs. This is everything I liked about Reddit back in 2011 and better. As it stands, dbzer0 is the LW of the flotilla. Does that make sense? That might be unpleasant for some people, but I think that’s a strength. The gate is wide fucking open. Solidarity to me also means getting people on board. Genocidal ideologies hurt the people they’re sold to as well, they impoverish the world we share.

Until the LW admins do something much more stupid, I strongly vote Nay. If they do, I’m happy to respond accordingly. But I don’t think it’s hit that point, I hope it doesn’t. I think this is a good initiative but that it’s being deployed too preemptively. I hope this comment isn’t too all over the place, but I really have a lot of thoughts whenever defederation or Zionist Bar problems pop up.

I do think we should try mediating first if they block our sister instances, and only defederate if they become worse about this whole thing.

Sorry decent people of Germany. Not all Germans etc etc

I don't blame you tbh

It took yous all long enough after their anti-vegan bullshit to realise that maybe they had garbage values and a problem with admin overreach.

I made a very similar post to this on the LW Announcement post, but this has since been slightly edited and fleshed out. But... for those unaware...

A user by the name of Luminous was an admin on Anarchist.nexus. They banned MrKaplan from a community for 'posting zionist apologia.' Luminous also had 'Murder all Zionists' as their display name. MrKaplan took this as a personal death threat. Instead of speaking with any other admin from Anarchist.nexus and reporting the behavior, MrKaplan instantly defederated from Anarchist.nexus. In the next couple of days, Kaplan messaged other users/admins of Lemmy about the defederation and suggested defederation to others as well.

After being posted in the Piefed general chat, PugJesus pushed back against the defederation.

The conversation moves elsewhere.

So, I messaged Kaplan. Conversation goes on and one thing is made clear, that Kaplan did not reach out to any of the Admins of Dbzer0 or Anarchist.nexus until after defederation had occured.

LWAdmins made an announcement post discussing the defederation but the post was not featured unlike all other recent posts made by the LWAdmin account, which felt underhanded. To make matters worse, Serinus (a moderator with admin level abilities), proceeded to step into the conversation and start removing offending posts for reasons listing anything from "We've heard your opinion" to "Misinformation" when screenshots proved otherwise. I say he has Admin level access because @Goferking0@ttrpg.network was banned from the Instance by an Automod I (and Jordan Lund) previously had access to. It sort of sidesteps the Modlog by not logging who actually did the removal, which I'm not a huge fan of, but this was also admitted by Serinus in a comment where he said he was the one who banned them. This being the same Serinus who said this of defederating with Anarchist.nexus:

Kaplan later doubled down in the LemmyWorld Discord Server, after the conversation I had with them in which they admitted having exactly zero evidence for this stance other than it "feeling odd", by stating:

Ruud, the head admin of Lemmy.world, has had no feedback on this position. The only natural conclusion one can come to is that the LW Admin team (of which Serinus now seems to be a part of as he speaks for the admins in the admin community and has admin tools) are not just fully willing to act based off of knee-jerk reactions, but aren't capable of communicating with other admins on issues that they may have with their instance. Or that they only will confer with you if your instance has enough users for them to consider a valid one.

Now, they have refederated with Anarchist.nexus since this situation but they haven't backed down from the threat of defederation. This is much like every other major problematic issue that has been brought up in the past with Lemmy.world. Their admin team drags their feet for an absurd amount of time, despite rolling in reports about moderator abuse or whatever else, and then expects people to act with pre-cog abilities without them informing you of their problems with your instance. Also seem to be willing to police how good your reasoning is on how you feel about the situation to judge whether or not it's appropriate to defederate.

To paraphrase what Kaplan said in one of those screenshots, it is not my intention to control who can or can’t be on admin teams on another instance but I do expect other instances to understand that an individual admin’s actions reflect their instance as a whole. Something Ruud seems to not care about and something that Kaplan belives does not apply to themself. Overall, the primary response by the LW Admin team has been to frame AN and Dbzer0 as either a small instance that “only has 165 users” or "only 71 monthly users" or a “vocal minority with an agenda”. For 20,000 users.

How long before its your instance on the chopping block for not telling them exactly what they want to hear? How many of your users will be silenced by Lemmy.world for a perceived sleight against them?

What Luminous did was idiotic and troll-esque. But what Kaplan is doing is considerably worse.

I don't think I have to state where I stand on this.

Lemy.lol has a new administration team. We stand with Dbzer0 against Lemmy.world's flagrant abuses of power. Their admins have forgotten the purpose of defederation. To see it used as a cudgell against a single user they feel distasteful, not to mention not having any evidence to back up their claims, is a gross offense to the Fediverse as a whole.

I'm always team fuck Lemmy.world. if I wanted garbage ass reddit takes, I'd just got to reddit.

I think the four major points people need to take away from this vote are:

• 1. FAF defederation, in this manifestation (that may change in the future, subject to a new vote I hope), from LW is reactive, not proactive; we and our flotilla will defederate if and only if they defederate first
• 1. FAF defederation, in this manifestation (that may change in the future, subject to a new vote I hope), from LW is an act of solidarity with small, new, niche instances that share the same cause, where we protect us from abusers in the Fediverse
• 1. FAF defederation, in this manifestation (that may change in the future, subject to a new vote I hope), from LW is not dissimilar from Boycotts, Divestments, and Sanctions (BDS) IRL where pressure is applied to isolate and eventually cause attrition of a monopolous instance to the point where the instance's admins see their instance declining in popularity/activity and reverse their decision to defederate
• 1. FAF defederation, in this manifestation (that may change in the future, subject to a new vote I hope), from LW is temporary in that we only defederate for as long as they do with the long-term hope of encouraging freedom of thought, expression, digital movement, and self-determination of Lemmings and Fedizens more broadly, perhaps leading to a decline in LW users and a rise in non-LW users over time as the users themselves decide to live digitally where they want without others manipulating their agency

Assuming I'm reflecting the ideals of db0's admins here, I vote Aye.

Fuck it I'll have to be the one. This is absolute stupidity. Cowering from conversation, backing ourself into an echo chamber. Why would a floatilla of pirates flee unless they were all cowards. These are centrists making us bow and look life pitiful nothing. If you have nothing to say to refute them, then you never had a word to say. You have just been regurgitatating nothingness. If you believe your convictions are true, then refute them or block them. This post is pure cowardace and shows we are the weakest I have ever thought we were. If dbzer0 isn't going to stand and speak their mind, the flotilla should die. Fuck your cowardess.

I think you guys should just defederate, because even if you loose access to some popular or good comms Axis.world is just going to keep getting worse

They now are being pretty defensive of zionists, they rarely if ever moderate transphobia, they are eventually going to go more hands off on other issues until they start defending the wrong side over civility and eventually they will attract more like minded bigots who will join so their takes dont get moderated

Its the beginnings of a nazi bar basically

.world admins are a "both sides are the same" instance and will equate the atrocities of one side with the resistance of the other. I find myself constantly checking to see which instance I'm on before commenting. I didn't even realize I have been banned on certain .world communities for my comments and nothing of value was lost.

Lemmy (the platform) of today is very different than that from even a year ago. Many parallel community on alternate instances exist, albeit with varying levels of activity. While most people may start on .world, I'd be interested to know how many stay there.

I'm supportive of this action and would encourage.

I mean sure, if this is going to come up again then yeah just defed FAF from .world. But all of this is a bit LARPy... Let's not make it more dramatic than it needs to be, if zionists are doing their thing then just break the link (ban, defed, mute, whatever) with them and move on, all the fanfare about standing up to their bullying etc. is silly and a bit embarassing when contrasted with the actual oppression Palestinian folks are facing.

Incredible

Lemmy.world has always been the shitty centrist wanker instance.

recall that .world defederated from hexbear "preemptively, as a last resort"

Aye for cooperation with AN, nay on proactive decisions.

I feel like everything from the beginning was a completely unnecessary drama. The biggest instance should have more mods and proper communication between them to balance them out, without jumps to defeding at the drop of the hat. That's something everyone on LW should ask for, and other instances can encourage.

At the same time I feel like mirroring their unserious behavior is not a proper way around that, and it's only right if they defed someone from flotilia. Unless that happens, they should be alone in that unhealthy way, for it to be their own public disgrace. We should shoe that we are up to communication if they stop being irrational.

Easiest aye ever

I don't think I can vote, but please consider delaying the vote until Q3. Hexbear has been working hard to take over a lot of their admin/mod accounts. We're very close to total domination at which point we can do Phase 2. Things are going to change hard and fast at Lemmy.world. We're doing full Xi Jinping.

Someone posted Pro-Putin propaganda in their progressive politics community and not only was it not deleted, but my comment telling the OP to go fuck themselves for it was deleted. Added the whole instance to my block list.

“I have no idea what’s going on but it sounds very real and important” - Me, who just signed up a few days ago

What is the practical definition of this blockade? I'm assuming that because the word "defederate" only appears once, in the context of Lemmy.world's actions, that this blockade is separate from defederation. If so, what does it actually mean? If this is actually a vote for defederation, I think that it should be more clear in the post.

So zionists are free to kill palestinian kids but get offended if someone says something about them? For people who advocate killing inocent people they are such big cry babies. Death to all nazis, including the nazionists

lemmy.world?

More like

Down with reaction, down with capital, down with the state, may the shitlibs who laugh at us behind closed doors know the true power of the instances they consider insignificant.

I stand in solidarity.

🫡

Uhh sure, why not.

Aye.

aye

Yarr

Yo ho!

on board. most of their comms are cesspools anyways. defedding lemmy.world will make browsing all usable again i think.

So I will say this. I got annoyed with cm002 reposting stuff from smaller instances. I blocked world but it blocks both the users and the communities. If blocking were seperate I might have kept it going on just the communities. I do think its important the software allows blocking like that because the users just picked a convenient instance but if an instance gets to big I can see totally wanting to block out the "default" communities.

lol

Aye. Luminous did NOTHING WRONG. Infinite death to and forever!

I get the frustration tho. I'm no Zionist, but I get accused of it and regularly get banned on different subs just for discussing things from a centrist pov. It's ruining Lemmy and if we need to split to have open discourse in one place and some isolated echo chambers, so be it.

You can win battles, but never the war. Power always corrupts. Eventually, one will be stronger, then much stronger, and as they get stronger, they become more corrupt (Reddit). The only solution, apart from headge trimming, also a temporary solution, but more cathartic and maybe longer lasting, is to leave for a different option (Lemmy), and then the cycle repeats. And, in the end, the warriors die, and then a bigger cycle repeats. Cycles within cycles, we repeat the same circles, generation after generation, millennia after millennia.

More power to you, but if you get it, it will corrupt you, too. No one is immune. Power always corrupts.

What a massive waste of energy. The fediverse is small enough, can you guys not try to discuss politely about your differences of opinions without any ego-powered threats and hot-headed reactions?