Ek-Hou-Van-Braai
Controversial - the place to discuss controversial topicsSurgery doesn't change gender, gender is a social construct changed by social transition.
For the record, race is also a social construct, racist de facto caste systems are determined by skin color but they have no scientific basis.
Gender affirming surgery is in no way required for transition but is done for the mental well-being, quality of life, and in some cases ease of social acceptance of the individual.
Genuine question, isn't there enough genetic differentiation between certain populations that they would be considered a distinct grouping, is there a name for this ?
Like how medically there is enough (genetic) differentiation in certain circumstances to affect diagnosis and/or treatment.
I agree race is a social construct, especially given how it's used, I’m just wondering if there is a name for the groupings (or if they exist at all , i suppose)
edit: Added clarification to the differentiation to make it specifically genetic, because that could also be affected by environmental things.
further edit: now i think about it , genetics can just be a long term accumulation of environmental pressures so it's kinda murky anyway
Yes, lots, but it doesn't correspond with the social construct of race, ie. A given "black" person could be substantially more genetically similar to a given "white" person than they are to another person who would be considered a "black person." The genotypal groupings of human populations does not comfortably correspond to phenotypal/cultural groupings of human populations.
ooh, i think genotypal might be what i was thinking of.
Where phenotypal is a mixture of environmental and genetic expression , genotypal would be exclusively the part derived from genetics.
Would genotypal typically include epigenetics as well or only the fixed DNA based parts?
Close but not quite, genotype is the actual dna, phenotype is the observational characteristics.
But yes, epigenetics would fall under phenotype essentially.
I think there would be, but it would be very messy and you'd have to focus on specific things.
Eg. Certain populations can't really drink milk or there's a tribe that has enlarged kidneys and a strong dive reflex because they swim under water a lot to hunt fish
yeah, I think there's also a people who have an adapted eye lens shape to help with underwater acuity, Sherpa’s with oxygen efficiency at high altitude etc.
I wonder if there is a name for the taxonomic distinction here.
Purely scientifically the Wikipedia page suggests a whole bunch of different types of biological taxonomic distinctions that could be applied, but acknowledges that definitions are all over the place and not necessarily agreed upon.
In that sense you'd need to adjust yourself biologically, at the genetic level, to satisfy some of the definitions.
All of that disregards the non-biological connotations of the discussion though, so not super helpful here, just interesting.
"We also can't do anything about equality when it comes to financial security. Give a poor a thousand dollars, they will still be a filthy poor!"
Wow. Racist AND transphobic. Hilarious.
My hot take: I'd be fine with people being transracial; I'm not here to make other people jump through the performance of cultural litmus tests.
Disingenuous people will be punished by validation and the continued performance of their own lies. Don't reward their attention seeking behaviors and persecution fetishes with negative attention and persecution.
tl;dr you gotta throw them off their rhythm.
You could have just Googled this if you just wanted an answer...
If anyone doesn't want to give Reddit any kind of traffic, the answer is this:
There have been studies done on dead transgender people that demonstrate that trans people have differing brain structures; a trans woman's brain will have many (but not all) of the features that a cisgender woman's brain has. The same goes for trans men.
source: https://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/131/12/3132.full
There is no such evidence for transracial people as that's not really a thing. Race is much more of an artificial concept than gender, and has little biological basis. Black people are not of a different race than white people, they simply have different genetic traits that are well within the boundary for counting as the same species.
race as a social construct: http://www.jstor.org/stable/188702?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
Brain regions can be considered masculinized or feminized depending on their response to sex hormones (look up the preoptic area for a well-studied example of this); there's no such thing as a 'race hormone' that can 'blacken' or 'whiten' brain regions.
estrogen modulates neuronal movements within the developing preoptic area/anterior hypothalamus: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2295210/
Your comment deserves to be on top.
The JSTOR article seems to be loginwalled. You can get access to it from here.
Something in a similar vein for her specifically to consider:
Changing your last name to Bolsonaro does not make you related to the president of Brazil.
Ah yes, the gender change surgery.
I will never understand why someone else's gender identity is any of their concern
I will never understand why some else's preferred pronouns should be any of my concern.
She's right -- surgery doesn't change gender.
It only helps one's body conform to the gender they already are. Getting surgery doesn't turn a man into a woman (or vice versa). They were already a woman, and the surgery just helps them look and feel like it. A trans woman doesn't become a woman when she gets a surgery -- she becomes a woman when she realizes she's trans (or, rather, realizing she's trans reveals to her that she was always a woman).
Exactly.
Brainwiring/gender is above-the-neck, & sex is below-the-waist gonads.
They are distinct.
The gaslighters who insist that one's "identity" overrides one's body, are gaslighting.
Having people get the wrong medical-treatment because their gender-identity is all that is shown on their medical-chart, so they're being treated for male problems, while pregnant..
that whole category of problem is created by the falseness/artifice of "identity is the only reality" ideology/religion.
BOTH need to be identified, & BOTH have validity.
_ /\ _
she's a piece of shit :)
I agree.
But I'm trying to think of a valid argument as to why you can change your gender but not race.
Because race is a stupid term made to group people based on their appearance. 500 years ago it didn't even exist.
Gender is a deeper aspect which exist from the begining of our species.
Both seem to just be social constructs, so you should be able to change both
The reason, fyi, is because they're two different categories of thing. Gender is, and always has been, centered around the social aspects. Presentation, identity, roles, behaviours.
Race is a complex category, with a mix of physiological and culture dependent aspects.
You can't change your race because you can't change your heritage, which is a component.
You can, however, change your cultural identity. It's not a perfect analog to gender, obviously, but it's closer to race.
Much like how we conflated the names for the sexes with the names for the genders, many cultures share a name with a race that is a prominent member. This is often acutely clear to mixed race people or people adopted into a different racial household.
What makes you think that you can't change your race?
If you can change your gender, you can change your race.
So yea seems like you can
Gender isn't a heritable trait. I'm not a boy because my dad was a boy any more than I am a girl because my mom was a girl. I am white because my parents were white
Sort of. You're white because that's the box that society put you into. There are children of African-American parents who are so light-skinned that they pass as white and vice versa. Regardless of what race your parents are, you are the race that people perceive you as, because it's only based on perception.
They're not changing gender, they're changing their body to match their gender.
Sure, but does that mean you can also change your body to match your race? Like isn't race also a social construct?
Irish people weren't considered white not too long ago, so surely it must be.
Race is also a social construct, as you point out.
Skin color is a genetic phenotype., biological sex is too. Those phenotypes are inherited.
So yeah, you could change your appearance: skin color, bone structure, musculature, etc with surgery.
Michael Jackson is a good example of this (though he had vitiligo). Compare pictures of his face in his early career to later. He was still 'African American' though.
Gender is not inherited
I don't see how that's relevant
Why is race not based on how you perceive yourself? There are many people who walk the line between races, should they be forced to be the race that others think that they best match?
How would you even 'force to be a race' ?
You can force people's gender by criminalizing gender affirming care
Do you think banning blackface is remotely comparable?
Whiteness is an exclusionary concept, it's entire purpose is to create an in-group and out-group.
Ok then. I don't give a shit about gender. That isn't biological. That's psychological.
Only care about sex. That's biological.
Race is based on hereditary and genetics. It's not reducible to simply skin color. Race is a spectrum, so there's endless 'off-whites.'
People aren't born with identities anymore than they are culture. No one is born with a gender, apparently. They're born with a sex.
If you leave young kids alone they'll eventually get naked and, uh, investigate each other ... regardless of sex.
Now you understand where TERFs are coming from. Right? Right?
Right?
One could argue no one is born with a gender identity. No one is born with a sexual orientation. But thinking makes it so. So where do those thoughts come from? Because it's not kids.
gross
Got that one labeled as a fascist so, checks out
ok, so no word of a lie, i saw your comment, look at the name, read it as "fascistBasis" and I’m like dayum, they be self identifying and everything nowadays.
then realised my mistake.
I guess TERF would be more exact
Their controversial comments are less bad than I expected from my previous interaction with them, besides the TERFbrained comments
Yeah that was an easy block
I'm a Democratic socialist, Stalin.
OK, so i really need to preface this with the fact that this is a genuine question, my knowledge of political ideologies and their naming schemes is basically "things i heard in passing on the internet".
Also apologies if it's a joke that i've /whooshed on.
What is the difference between the type of democratic socialist you are and a social democrat.
Is it a Peoples Front Of Judea type of thing ? or is there a legitimate difference?
The reason i ask is that the only other social democrat (or democratic socialist, assuming there isn't a difference) political ideology I’ve heard of was the precursor to the nazi's.
It's really not a dig, i'm interested in the answer.
Lol that checks out
Downvote. Unsubstantial.
Living up to your username
Isn't that the point?
Now you understand where TERFs are coming from. Right? Right?
No.
You might need fallopian tubes to understand.
No.
Gotcha. I can explain things to you, but I can't understand them for you.
Have a good day.
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Because gender is a social convention
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because I did and it worked. I'm a woman and everybody around me sees and and we all just get on with life. (See part 1)
https://www.transvitae.com/debunking-the-transracial-comparison-why-gender-and-race-differ/
If you don't see why, then why do you agree she's a piece of shit?
It’s definitely a complex issue with nuances that go beyond the surface level of the argument. The short answer is that gender is a fluid expression, race is static because it’s your heritage.
There’s way more to it obviously, but I’m not really qualified or eloquent enough to really get into it.
idk Michael Jackson did... something
Not that anyone who takes this seriously would care, but sex change surgery doesn't change gender, it changes anatomy. A person is already the gender they are before or after any medical interventions
This terf would be so owned if he could read.
Race and gender continually being used as a straw man while the elites advance their anti democratic agenda against all of us is the most ridiculous thing I’ve had to witness in this timeline.
Considering gender is a social construct and pigmentation isn’t…
Pigmentation doesn't determine your race though
Race is made up nonsense by racists to justify discrimination.
If pigmentation isn’t race, what is race?
I mean. You said it yourself: it's a set of made up factors.
In regions of Africa it was nose size and height. There's also hair textures, and ... You know, really any heritable physical feature has probably been raced up at some point.
Even outside of a discrimination context, it's just arbitrary physical characteristics that lump people from roughly similar areas and heritages together.
Changing your coarse physical characteristics doesn't change your race because it doesn't change your heritage, it's not heritable, and race is extremely mixed up with culture.
It may be a synthetic division (if you went in blind and grouped people by DNA you'd be extremely unlikely to group them based on any particular racial basis), but it's still physically based in a way that gender isn't.
Pigmentation isn't race, if it were then someone with Albinism would be a different race to their same-race-parents.
What an ugly person.
Don't know her but ... She got it?
The surgery is just like the make-up, only adjusting what's there already underneath all along! Why should a woman be less of a woman just because she has an unwanted appendix between the legs?
And because this might be too subtle: trans X are X, before any surgery as well as after. The identification is the true self, not what some role of dice or genes made one look like at birth.
I'm a bit afraid that this isn't the intended message though and I'm too optimistic.
No im pretty sure trans x is on mastodon now.
Get home late from an argument you couldn't win?
Try blackface!
You certainly won't regret trying blackface to win an argument.
So
Race is what we call a social construct. There isn't anything substantial physically separating white people from black people or anything else. Really it's a matter of culture and shared history. There are a couple of things that make somebody actually part of that group.
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How they see themselves. Do they recognize themselves as a part of this group?
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How society sees them. Would society recognize them as part of that group? This includes their history and ancestry as well as how society treats them based off of their looks and culture
I can't say for 100% certainty that she doesn't see herself as black, but I still am 99% sure. Her own actions are incredibly unserious and I don't think she has any real connections with the history or ancestry of Brazilian black people. She's never had to live as that class of people either.
Of course this is a very broad oversimplification. I'm not black but I am part of a different minority
Well I missed the gender part.
Gender is likewise a social construct. Every human, male or female could theoretically develop into either phenotype regardless of physical characteristics that they eventually do develop. All of that is thrown out the window though when you examine our roles in society. We could have the choice of not distinguishing between us at all. Our thoughts and actions on gender have changed substantially over the past few hundred years. Between clothes and fashion and family structures, how we look at gender changes.
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I self-identify as a woman. I am transgender too, but some transgender women don't actually identify as transgender if they transitioned really young. Society at large would not treat these people as "transgender women" and merely women
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How society treats me is a bit more up in the air though. Many people do recognize me as a woman. I have the same social role as a single woman generally has. I wear women's clothes, I have women's hobbies, I talk, I act, and other people treat me like a woman. I've even experienced misogyny, as people will talk to my male colleagues and ignore me completely. However, some people tend to just stay away from me and pretend I don't exist. They'd say that they were gay for liking me. But this is because I'm part of a different minority, being transgender rather than because I am a woman
Transgender women are indeed women. They will experience the same joys and the same struggles as women do. But of course they're still transgender and they will experience the same struggles as every transgender person does.
wear women's clothes, I have women's hobbies
What are women's hobbies actually? My wife really likes ice hockey, is that a women hobby? Men hobby? What I mean by this is, that for the past several decades we fought for that there are no "men things" and no "women things". No gender norms, do whatever makes you happy. And now I'm like wondering where we took the wrong turn that we're back to puting things into the little sex/gender boxes.
I'm sorry, this isn't targeted at you personally, I'm just thinking out loud about the society in general
Gendered hobbies is also a social construct I guess. Hobbies are still associated with men or women though. I think people with atypical hobbies are very hot. I'd be happy to let anybody do anything, even though I was denied the same opportunities when I was younger. I say denied but I think it's more that my sister didn't want to share.
race can be traced genetically, ethnicity is a social construct
I love clowns.
Even if you ignore the transphobic content, the question is just batshit crazy for any X and Y you want to substitute. Cosmetics vs surgery have very different effects and permanency.
“If I wear a blindfold I’m not permanently blind but you expect me to believe that surgically removing my eyes would blind me?” Yes, idiot.
Of course it doesn't change gender!
It changes sex, that is why it is called a "sex change".
While she very likely said this in a mean spirited way, I think it's a very good analogy.
There is no race on your ID card because it would be stupid (and very dangerous as it can and would be misused) then why is there gender? If a person identifies as "black" (whatever the hell that means, are they African? African American? European? South Indian? Etc. - you can easily be born with dark skin on pretty much any place on earth for whatever reason) then so be it, they may have valid reasons to feel a connection with a particular culture or ancestry. Why should a person not be able to identify as "male" or "female" without it massively affecting their lives?
They are all social constructs anyways, people should be free to identify however they want without needing to declare it to the government, in my opinion.
She can be black if she wants to be. Same way a person can be the gender they feel most comfortable being. It none of anybody else's business as it doesn't affect them.
Trying to control what others do, on the other hand... is deplorable.
I mean at some point it definately does. If we had a full body genetic change technology you would effectively be the other sex. If that is indeed possible but maybe its like altered carbon and you bring your consciousness into a totally different body. I mean if any are possible. I mean women get boob jobs. Afterwards are they still flat chested. What about electrolysis. Are thier legs still hairy. It comes down to how close it gets. Main thing is people should be allowed to do what they want with their own bodies and they should not be discriminated against. If bathrooms and locker rooms are such a big deal we can adapt. Make them genderless and have floor to ceiling toilettes. Have locker cubicles that are shower with a locker to keep your clothes and towel dry from splashing with a common general locker area to hold your stuff while you workout or whatever.
obviously never fully gonna transition with the current medical technology we have at the moment. despite this, these procedures are super complex, and a fuck you towards doctors. a civil case is a bit too much. someone should just slap her. trolls do not need more attention.
How can she compare visible appearance with a change of physical characteristics of a body? Makeup is a temporary change of your appearance. Gender operation is a relatevly permanent change of properties of your body. These are not equal things.
"visible appearance"
"physical characteristics"
I'm sorry, what's the difference?
"relatevly permanent"
This is an oxymoron I think, it's either permanent or it's not, your need to apply the caveat shows that this too is temporary, can be reversed that they are in fact equal things.
I'm happy to be shown I'm wrong, I'm just having trouble parsing your argument.
Yeah, sorry. This happens sometimes when you know multiple languages and your brain hasn't switched from thinking on other language before you write in English. What I have meant, is that makeup is very easy to apply and remove. It doesn't change your body functions and abilities. Surgery is much harder to undo( if even possible) and it changes your body actually. So it is not correct from my point of view to compare temporal look with a long-term body change, moreover to use a racial analogy for this.
Thank you for the clarification, it's much appreciated.
Those whom this video was made for, often believe trans women are just men wearing makeup. It's unfortunately a silly troupe that has worked effectively enough to get us to this point. They are literally circle jerking their own repugnant propaganda at this point.
Someone has never watched a single sci-fi or fantasy TV show/movie.
(Talking about the work of make-up artists here not about storylines in them)
That last sentence is less than great.
Is it less great than a politician doing blackface?
Race is an immutable characteristic based on ancestry, gender is a societal construct based off of self image that idiots like this conflate with sex.
This gal is just showing off that she doesn't understand what gender is without making anything approaching a reasonable comparison and she should be laughed out of showing her face in public.
Lots of knuckleheads think that gender is immutable as well.
Race is a social construct, the Irish weren't considered white until fairly recently.
So if someone can change their gender, they should also be able to change their race?
