I'm curious
(midwest.social)
LadyButterfly she/her
WomensStuffThis thread is s seriously lacking a definition of feminism. People, you are talking about different things. There are so many varieties of feminism. Some are awesome - others like TERFs not. Different countries have different struggles in regard of gender - the situation in the USA or Saudi Arabia is different from that in Europe or Russia.
misandry is bad. and a lot of people confuse the two.
but the outrage is justified. crazy to think that women are still being made to feel less than in the fucking future.
Misandry is absolutely it. I feel like it's like the confidence vs arrogance. It can be easy to confuse one for the other.
I'm a man, and after a lifetime of work, I can say that I have generally preferred my women bosses more than the men. I've had a few great male bosses, but I've also had some extremely terrible ones.
On the other hand, most of the female bosses I've had have been excellent, some great, and only a few have been mediocre or bad, but none of them were as bad as some of the male bosses I've had.
Today, as a business owner, I also prefer to hire women. They are more reliable, in general, and it's easier to find smart women workers than men. Many men are proud of their ignorance.
Most men don't know what feminism is. They just go by the name and what the most vocal 'feminists' say or do.
There definitely isn't going to be someone from the meme in this comment section.
If i really really really need to say something. I would say its unfair how often women win in custody dispudes, even if there is no real argument why. Most of the time if its "a draw" the mother wins by default.
Other than that cant really think nothing else.
Well maybe that i live in country where men have mandatory military service, but women dont. But in my mind its okay that women dont have to serve, so i guess im against equality then?
That’s a misconception. These days, the main reason why women are granted majority custody more often is because men seek out custody less often.
Yep, every time I've heard this from a man (and I am one) it's been the biggest red flag, and the woman was clearly the more responsible and dutiful one when all the facts were considered. I've learned to take these kinds of statements from men with a Mt Everest-sized grain of salt. I suppose it could go the other way too, but I've only ever seen men saying these things.
These same men will go through hell to gaslight and distort the reality and opinions of those around them to paint their former partners as crazy villains, and the courts as unjust. In reality, family court has seen it all and will take literally everything they can into consideration for an impartial decision - it's literally their job.
Just as a tought play.
You presume something about the character of the person just based on their gender? And you can dismiss what they say because its the common knowledge that they hyperbole things, because of their gender. And that people are free from prejustice, just because its their job?
Im just teasing you, but you see whats happening here right?
Well, you're making some big assumptions there. I made my comment from personal experience of a small number of men in my life who had made similar comments, because I have noticed that they've all said similar things and engaged in similar behavior. It is not a sweeping prejudice. I also happen to know a number of men who handled separation and custody decisions gracefully and didn't try to blame their troubles on their former partner or the court.
I generally tend to believe the courts' decisions in these cases because it's literally all they do, judges tend to have very high level training to avoid being tainted by biases, and the public is extremely sensitive to matters of judicial impartiality. For someone who was just ruled against, complaining about the system that made that ruling is such low hanging fruit in that moment. Just because someone is butthurt doesn't mean the system isn't working, and it doesn't mean they're in the right.
This is a women’s only community by the way.
Oh shit. The post came up when sorting everything-new. Ill let mod to decite whenever they want to delete my bullshit and see my self out.
men seek out custody less often
do you think that could be a symptom of men feeling like there's no point even trying if they're just gonna lose?
Then they’re pretty weak men who have failed as fathers.
Men who seek custody and aren’t abusive are usually awarded custody of some kind.
So are you saying that men that loose custody are weak and its their fault? So in a way its the victims fault? Huh. Never tought it that way.
I truly belive in equality, but i cant deny, that its funny how its often the same arguments in the both end of the spectrum.
No, men that choose to not seek custody and abandon their children because of a misconception are weak and bad fathers.
It's hard to reason with people who keep saying "we're fucked because of who women voted. They shouldn't be able to vote.". If anyone has advice on how to convince them otherwise...
Don't forget the strawmen that insist the majority of feminists want a heirarchy reversal in society. (And also regularly insinuate or outright say that feminism leads to white men being 'cucked' universally by black men. Really, it all sounds like fetish projection when you look into it enough.)
See also the argument that most anti-LGBTQ+ people are in fact, deeply "in the closet", usually because of religious brainwashing reasons.
or outright say that feminism leads to white men being 'cucked' universally by black men.
The real psychosocial roots of fascism.
It could be argued that this is why progress is measured in lifetimes. The old must submit to entropy before the new can take their place.
If you're genuinely trying to convince someone in particular, try asking "how?" That should starting breaking the ignorance into smaller chunks that you can repair with truthful knowledge. You might have to go a few layers of "how?" deep to start patching the holes in their understanding in order to build a solid foundation for the rest of what you and I take as obvious.
Edit: At the risk of "stating the obvious" I'll point out that the term "woke" is intended as a derogatory reference to those who have "woken up". Meaning, we learned something that suddenly made everything else make sense. Some missing piece of the puzzle was, at some point, unveiled to us, and we became aware of (at least part of) the bigger picture.
Go wake some people up. 💛
you mention age but genz is a huge oroblem. people in their 20s right now are fucking bigots
Yeah, there's been a massive slide backward in young men in particular.
Social media algorithms favouring rich, wealthy men's views (polarisation) can be blamed, alongside the backsliding of socioeconomic equality, and the rising gerontocracy. When you feel hopeless in your perspective, and all you see is how to blame others, you're inclined to do so. It's a classic "divide and rule" tactic employed by the wealthy.
I try to make them aware of that socioeconomic inequality and to battle for their wellbeing through protest, through supporting equality. After all: another person's equality helps their own too.
Usually it's more like « I know we oppressed you for millennia, but maybe you could ask more nicely for us to stop »
Hot take - men are against de jure "positive discrimination" in favour of women because there's no de jure "positive discrimination" in favour of men.
https://melissahogenboom.substack.com/p/feminism-has-gone-too-far
She tries to explore the statistics where new generations feel that feminism is no longer about lifting up women but putting down men.
It is interesting to see that she mentions that women outperform men academically and in early earnings. She however fails to explore why that happens.
I can't speak about your country and your culture - I can only speak about mine. I will be quoting women feminists (with links), but in Polish (I tried autotranslating them and they seem readable).
Here in Poland men are de jure (and de facto) discriminated against in all levels of education, e. g. https://www.rp.pl/opinie-polityczno-spoleczne/art43786261-jakub-chabik-dyskryminacja-pozytywna-plus-rownosc-selektywna-to-bunt-mezczyzn in early education: girls have now better average scores in language than boys and equal in math, but for their gender girls are offered extra points to qualify for "math excellence extracurricular programs", as uni STEM only sees only ~40% of women. There is no similar program for uni bio or med, where men are only ~25%.
Heck: https://krytykapolityczna.pl/kraj/wieczorkiewicz-istnieja-formy-dyskryminacji-mezczyzn-ze-wzgledu-na-plec-polemika-z-wojcikiem/ - she explores forms of de juro and de facto discrimination against men in Poland, lack of interest from progressive and leftist parties to even mention men discrimantion and issues (and even blaming men for them), and finishes the article saying that she sees the right-wing counterforce parties getting access to men because of all that.
So yeah - if you base your feminism at "When someone is accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression", then that feminism is bad.
Isn't the default "positive descrimination" towards men?
Some people will loudly proclaim so, which makes it seem like a universal unimpeachable truth
The only feminism branch I take issue with is the TERF variety, and just to be clear, its not the feminist part of that. I hope that enough of us can agree on that much.
TERFs aren't feminists
They clearly do not strive for gender equality since they hate, in their words, "women who are men"; this means that they want to distinguish between genders and treat them differently
Feminists strive for equality. Misandrists do not.
Zero disagreement here. You're for all women or you're not feminist. There's no middle ground.
100%, the ostracizing of transwomen leads to oppression of all women. Not looking, dressing or acting feminine enough... it's about controlling women. The ones who get attacked in bathrooms by terfs and other transphobes are most likely ciswomen because there's so few transwomen in comparison
Edit// whoops, I came through /all and didn't notice which community... Sorry! I'll leave this up only since I'm technically allowed as an enby, and because fuck terfs.
In the many times I’ve had men (and some women ffs) force this explanation upon me, they usually:
-
Have fundamental misunderstanding of what feminism is. They often think women want dominance over them or something, giving them a victim complex.
-
Support feminist values in theory, but get annoyed when literally anything at all is asked of them to contribute to meaningful change. (see also: systemic racism)
Neither of these are an excuse and I’m so exhausted hearing them over and over.
Then there's the rarer #3 (but still very nice when it happens):
- They were ignorant at first, and then taught about it, and then realised it, and work on it and speak on other men when they behave badly.
Those are the good allies <3 and I try to focus on those things. Pessimism makes us feel desperate and lack the will for action. Focus on the good we have wrought so far!
Yeah, though in my experience, those men are genuinely curious and asking good faith questions to begin with, rather than just fire-hosing their opinion.
I guess I was mainly complaining about the unsolicited opinions I hear when the topic comes up (and sometimes, when it didn't... -_-).
Edit - oh, damnit, I didn't see what community I was posting in. Hello from /all. Sorry to intrude!
It's fine thanks for editing your comment it's really respectful ❤️
I think the logic on #1 (though they probably don't consciously realize this) is women have generally been treated terribly for millennia, they don't want the same treatment themselves.
There also is a fair amount of (very understandable) misandry mixed in with feminism. Not that all feminists are misandrists but all misandrists are feminists and this is amplified in media.
Misandrists are fake feminists
Real feminists are not misandrists
This makes sense if you have a zero-sum world view.
It also makes sense when you realize they're fine with a negative sum as long as they get a larger share, but they understand that saying that would get them in trouble.
I find this website equally as anti-feminist as Reddit. Doesn't really surprise me since this website is more male than Reddit and also full of Reddit refugees.
It's incredibly anti-feminist and misogynistic. It really feels like early Reddit days and 4chan here more often than not.
We've got men coming in this very thread crying misandry because of a somewhat critical tone towards men who aren't feminists.
Block some instances, that helps. Give me a sec, I have a list ready.
Edit: here's one to look for in comments. Still looking for the list..
Edit 2: found it! Here's the block list I use, very handy.
@sveltecider@lemmy.ca , this may also be handy for you!
Thank you! I'll definitely add a few of these communities to my block list. I haven't stumbled on too many out and proud conservatives in the wild here, but some of these leftist men are still carrying a lot of sexist baggage. This will still help a bit!
Too bad huge boobs is spammy lol
To be fair I'm a lesbian so I def don't mind the boobs lol, but yeah it's a bit too frequent for my feed, haha.
What also helps is being on an instance that is explicitly affirming and welcoming to gals and queers. I often tongue-in-cheekishly use queer and furry presence as a canary. They tend to be super chill and whenever they're in some space, it's often a sign for me that it's welcoming.
The instance is important, because some defederate with a lot of the bad stuff by default. So that helps.
Another thing is PieFed, they have some anti-authoritarian features baked in, which is handy. Though I'm not a fan of the "often low score comments = comment not visible" element, that reminds me too much of Reddit.
Whether one chooses Lemmy, PieFed, or Kbin, all are valid in the long end - they're all part of the fediverse, that's the important one. It boils down to preferences.
It's hard to parse through the difference in instances when first joining lemmy tbh. I ended up creating my first account on world and it was really off-putting. Lemmy.today is a little closer to what I'm comfortable with and it's being hosted in a state that I consider a good neighbor, so I've stuck around so far.
Definitely have considered making an account on blahaj.zone
Join us. There's so many trans femme nerds here it's great.
Similar sentiment here as a bi woman hahah
That'll just be a community that's visited on its own ;)
The right to say "no".
That's pretty much it. Every other right boils down to that one in the end.
I feel like it'd work better if you'd ask them "should men be treated like how you want to treat women: without a right to decide whether to have a child, without being able to work, without being ... etc.".
I feel like most men don't really understand, unless if they were put in our shoes. I've seen shows where that exactly happens: they get whistled at by even stronger people, they're derided and told their views don't matter, they get lower wages (in simulations), and so on. Some do change their mind after that, at least.
A large part of the issue is the framing the right wing uses. The right wing will say something like, "well, if you want equal rights, you'd be egalitarian, not a feminist." And then point to the most extreme examples of feminism like, I dunno, a woman killing a bunch of people and claiming to be a feminist? as what all feminists stand for, and only use uncharitable examples. And if a viewer doesn't have enough feminine friends to vouch, it seems to them like the issues either don't exist or are exaggerated.
If they want to play the normalizing the extreme game, for every example they can come up with for feminism I can come up with a dozen for Christians, the manosphere, male celebrities, etc. without even straining myself.
They honestly feel like women have enough rights now and feminism is just a means to destroy men in the modern world.
It's so frustrating to see people not look past their own nose.
Maybe those men see feminists on the internet mainly complain about men, rather than attempting to make positive changes?
This entire thread is just a bait, and the level of misandry I see when this sub appears on my feed is depressing.
Let’s try and be nice to each other.
Rule 1. Women only… trans women are women, and transphobic or gender critical talk isn’t allowed. Anyone under the trans umbrella (e.g. non-binary, bigender, agender) is free to decide whether a women’s community is a good fit for them.
Being on the internet and making positive changes in one's community are not mutually exclusive.
I don't see any misandry here tbh.
The first sentence in the top comment on this thread: “In the many times I’ve had men (and some women ffs)”
Sounds like “Gender critical talk” and misandry to me. But I’m going to bow out now.
"Gender critical" means "transphobic"; it means seeing sex and not gender as what "matters"
Sounds like this is a space for women to talk about these things that we experience when talking to others on this subject.
Her personal experience talking to the men she has spoken to on this topic is valid. She did not say "all men" as you are clearly assuming.
We're allowed our own spaces here ffs.
Yeah it's usually not feminists that complain about men, it's just women complaining about male behaviours and refusing to put up with bullshit.
There is a lot to complain about. Hell we're at the point where there's documentaries about it. Stop crying about being called out for being an ass.
Well you're speaking again, and it's to ask a question. That's number one and number 2 right there. You're on the internet, that's number 3.
Oh we're allowed on the internet just as long as we're performing sex acts or not visibly female
Right, I forgot about the onlyfans exception.
You don't even need to look that far - you can see the effect with how this entire site responds to users like violet and such. The users here lap that sexual act right up, but don't you dare try to stand up for women in any comment section.
Am I going to regret asking "who's violet?"?
She’s been dominating the shit posting communities with posts about how she feels as a hot girl.
Ah. I don't go to shit posting communities so I missed her apparently. Cool.
Everyone deserves exemption from selective service.
"Please tell me which rights I don't deserve as a woman"
You answered that women don't deserve the exemption from selective service.
I simply pointed out everyone deserves that exemption. Is that not countering the hypocrisy you feel feminists push on this topic?
Women's International League for Peace and Freedom
And there are several loosely related organizations also fighting for the same - no draft for any genders.
There's even a few groups fighting to INCLUDE women in the selective service along with men.
Is the only reason you believe women don’t deserve to be exempted because men are not exempted?
Edit: a quick search reveals there’s several feminist organizations working to abolish the draft for all genders.
Edit 2: it’s actually impressive how you perfectly proved the post in real time. You incorrectly assumed what feminists believe and asserted it as a man in a women’s only space.
Did you happen to read the rules before you posted? Or do rules not apply to you because silly girls aren't serious?
He can’t even look up feminist organizations before being confidently incorrect about the kind of work they do.
In a women’s only community.
🤷♀️What can I say? They're the unemotional, logical gender who only do rational things.
Personally I love people who come into my social media feed to incorrect me about my areas of expertise. It makes the pointing and laughing taste sweeter.
Oh wow. Don't have to serve in the military. Wow. You're oppressed. I'm so privileged.
So your point of horror is that you might have to serve.
God forbid the men upset about the draft focus that energy towards our representatives and our government instead of checks notes ....feminists.
