142
Casual ConversationIt seems like having a website open and available on the internet is getting practically impossible to manage, with bots accounting for more and more traffic. AI has gotten to a point where it can circumvent just about any form of captcha, sooooo, what? Does "the internet just get abandoned in favor of some other, better technology that we hope crops up? Does it fade away? Do the real nerds start their own separate internet, and not let companies in? I donno, food for thought I guess.
It seems like having a website open and available on the internet is getting practically impossible to manage,
What are the issues you’re facing?
with bots accounting for more and more traffic.
Can’t you just ignore them?
AI has gotten to a point where it can circumvent just about any form of captcha, sooooo, what?
Not sure I understand that.
Does “the internet just get abandoned in favor of some other, better technology that we hope crops up? Does it fade away? Do the real nerds start their own separate internet, and not let companies in? I donno, food for thought I guess.
Technology will not be the solution to what is partly at least already a technological issue. Or more precisely, no tech can solve the way we poorly handle tech. That needs to change first.
The living Web you mention was a curated Web. Human curation, that is.
People used to share information and to promote sites and content from other sites to their own readers because they considered it worthwhile of their time and attention. That’s good curation. 'Read this, guys, I think it’s worth it'.
And at times, that was truly amazing. As far as I'm concerned, that was the peak ‘Web’, the one I was the most happy with and the most proud to be part of.
Then, blogging started to become trendy. Blogging was an impressive technological breakthrough, making it instantly simpler for anyone without any expertise to
- Publish content without any need to master complex tools (I created my first website learning to write HTML and then CSS, there was no PHP or javascript back then)
- Share content from elsewhere. It was dead simple to share a link, to ping other websites.
- And, obviously, to post comments everywhere too.
Trendy bloggers started monetizing the hell out of every single bit of content they published, and the crowd of bloggers followed suit. Through ads and partnerships content publication and curation itself, that used to be about caring about our readers, became a bankable practice. That means there quickly was a demand for even more tech to make it even simpler/cheaper to publish (and also to show ads). Next to that there was also SEO growing in importance: more content and more demand required ways to optimize placement in search results so we could sell more ads, right? More tech needed.
And then social networks started appearing.
They were even simpler than blogging. Incredibly much simpler. Quickly, thx to social media, sharing content went ballistic. And then that was all that mattered: poop out as much content as possible. Even more tech was required (tech to automate it, to cross post it, to re-post, to share and to reply, and so on). Even commenting became too much work, that need to be reduced in order to be worth it, it was too slow, we started using a new tech: ‘Likes’. Almost instant. No need to write stupid words anymore, just press a button. Like or Dislike, that was all that was needed, even more so that there was so much endless content that was pushed down reader’s throat they would not possibly have any time left to, you know, write anything.
Gone were the desire to share useful or interesting content with readers, and for readers to contribute back some content through comments. Here comes the time to milk that reader, and their attention.
A reader that had suddenly morphed into a ‘follower’, the 21st century cattle (like with cattle, all that matter on social media is the number of heads/followers one owns and can monetize). The time to abuse the curation mechanism by promoting whatever shit was susceptible to generate revenues. hence the explosion of low quality posts. Quick, let’s make a 15 second video about the war somewhere, or that fact that I hate a tuna sandwich for lunch.
Soon there will not even be that left as everything, every once of content, may well be AI-made without any human involved. Content that will be perfectly and algorithmically tailored to suit every single reader/follower (happy cattle, with it s own unique tag different from all the other cows that are being being milked at the same time they are).
But the ‘living’ Web, that human-curated source of content is still available on the WWW. It survives next to those huge factories constantly pooping content that most people seem so hungry to consume from. It may vanish, rendered illegal by those poop-content factories that don’t want no interferences with their businesses, but it is still a thing today.
I doubt creating a new Internet will change that.
What need to change is… I don’t know... the way they are being educated and encouraged in being lazy as fuck? The way we consider and we use technology as a magical wand to solve all our needs and fears? Something like that.
And sorry for the long rant.
Edit: (too many) typos
with bots accounting for more and more traffic.
Can’t you just ignore them?
You have to pay for the traffic and the bot traffic can easily comprise 99 % of your site's traffic. It is a huge increase in costs you need to bear. Even if you build a site for 50 people, you may end up paying the costs of a site for 10 000 users.
There are ways to mitigate this – otherwise hosting an instance of PieFed of Lemmy would be simply impossible, but it does take extra skills, and it's very bad if you don't know about this problem beforehand!
Is this even for static sites? Geeze, that sounds awful. I've been getting really excited about starting up an "indie web" site and enjoying that HTML/CSS digital gardening I was way too ADHD to get in on in the early 00's...
Probably less relevant for completely static sites. But for example, a PieFed instance can easily get tens of thousands of request from the same bot in one day, requesting different variations of the same thing practically without an end.
If you've got a form that can include text, it will basically try every combination of letters possible for that form. I've read enough times about how admins of Fediverse instances are trying to battle those AI scraper bots and what kind of trouble they cause, but I do not personally know enough about the subject to give any advice more useful than what I've said. At this point I think you already know about as much about it as I do :D
But, a completely static page should be safe, I assume?
As a matter of fact the (small French) host I'm using to host my tiny personal blog is giving me a more than generous data allowance as I've yet to have any issue. Or maybe it's just that my blog is so useless that it's not even deemed worthy of a bot's attention?
More seriously, I had not considered that aspect. It sure is not a detail. And that is something I'll discuss with my host to get his opinion on the question (he must be a lot more informed on that issue). That is another advantage of making business with a local company: there are actual people once can talk to, not AI-powered bots ;)
Edit: & thx for the explanation.
I too hate a tuna sandwich for lunch...
But how many views and Likes did you get? Matters a lot more than how much you enjoyed your meal (mine was great)
Well put. That was leagues better than what I did the other day by trying to be a smartass and saying it through puns to get around AI-based and algorithmic content filtering.
Everybody thought I was being a schizo. Fair though. Although I got Ask Grok locked down for non-premium users so that was something I guess?
I think the deeper problem being implied by your analysis is what’s currently happening. The herds (or artificial social cliques) you just defined are literally being aligned. Something like what they do to AI (Reinforcement Learning Through Human Feedback), but it’s “Advertiser Feedback”.
Non-zero-sum-James has a beautiful ongoing series on the subject if you’re interested: https://nonzerosum.games/alignment1.html
(That’s one of the still living parts of the internet you mentioned, and I’d recommend a visit if you’re still looking)
Well put.
Thx. It’s always challenging to try to think out loud in English (hence why I try to do it, and why I also try to post on my blog in English too)
Everybody thought I was being a schizo. Fair though.
I did not. I hesitated between two options concerning those posts of yours :
- Either you were making it uselessly difficult for people to understand you because you were losing control over your ‘weapon’ and even maybe even your projected smart tactic. Which is OK, the only persons that never fail are the not that never do anything.
- Or you were just... too serious about it. Against that, there is not much one can do.
But I certainly did not mind your project of creating some... disruption.
Maybe you can see I'm not much of fan of shocking readers. I consider a gift that anyone is kind enough to spend their time reading what I write.
Following that logic, I will much rather invite them, if I manage to, to get a taste of a sometimes different point of view than (try) to slap them in the face, or kick them in the ass. I don't think violence is a very efficient tool, in most situations.
It's a bit like a few people silently downvoting my post. I mean, I see them as people trying to say they don’t agree with me (which is OK) but that are also so shy they can’t say in what manner they don’t agree. Which makes them disagreeing rather useless as
- I really don’t mind people disagreeing with me. It’s even a good sign, at least if we want to live in a free society, to be aware we’re not all sharing the same views and values and we can all express our opinions.
- If anyone wants help me understand why their think I’m mistaken, or why I need to change my mind on something I said I need to hear actual arguments. I need facts to consider and to discuss. Not applause or booing (is that a word?). I’m not a performer doing his show, I share my ideas and opinions no matter how clumsy or stupid they are, or are not.
The herds (or artificial social cliques) you just defined are literally being aligned.
I will first need to check how it’s defined in the context of the site you linked to. But how I would understand it (as them being instrumentalized and polarized) I think the question we need to ask is two folds: by whom and, much harder to answer, for what purpose?
I would also be tempted to say the only way to try to find an answer to those questions is by comparing with other similar situations. How crowds (notice how they’re almost always angry) are regularly used to silent difficult opponents. How they are used to create distraction from what is really at stake. But like I said, I will need to read your link first.
That’s one of the still living parts of the internet you mentioned, and I’d recommend a visit if you’re still looking
I am, today more than ever.
Thx for sharing the link. I'll read it.
not a long rant. an appropriately old school engaged response
Thx, just edited out a few of way too many typos. Sorry for that too.
Do the real nerds start their own separate internet, and not let companies in?
We're already doing it.
In Snowcrash, the internet has been so abused that it is basically unusable and terribly unsafe, what with feral botnets and AI running wild.
So it's just kind of abandoned by people in favor of the Metaverse. Funny idea, and if you look at the current state of Usenet you can see how credible it is.
I like how it's described in Anathem, where it takes a specialized skill set and tools to extract signal from noise on the Reticulum.
There are dozens of us. And I love it here.
Oh yeah, easily a handful, maybe more.
Everyone start using project gemini (obviously Google named it's AI that because we were getting too popular. The slow and small Internet is what we want. Be the change. Write weird blog posts pseudonymously
how do we join this we?
where does it go from here?
Places like this. There is no real alternative, this is the best we currently have. Unless you want to overthrow the capitalist world order which I am admittedly in favor of.
This place ain't immune.
Certainly, but we don't have anything else except interacting irl
we don’t have anything else except interacting irl
And we are not desperate enough to resort to that!
Lol imagine interacting in meatspace lmao couldn't be me
Oh dear no. Talking to someone face to face like some primitive caveman? Dear lord, I'd rather be a hermit.
* goes back to painting his cavern wall *
Mhm, the moment the Fediverse hits a critical mass it's coming. Maybe it'll stay small enough to avoid it, but it's probably already here to some degree.
Why I started investing more energy in live chat. Harder to bot synchronously.
I think about this a lot. Well, on a few different levels: to a significant degree, it is already happening. The www of now doesn't really resemble the www of like 2006.
I have recently been working on a WP plugin that's a labyrinth for bots, because the www is being significantly and actively enshittified.
And like, this is what happens when opportunists seek to own public goods. AI has made it worse (also it's way more A than I), but this has been happening since there has been such a thing as a "web browser."
To paraphrase some movie...Clerks, maybe? Why do we have to leave? They're the ones who suck.
To paraphrase some movie…Clerks, maybe? Why do we have to leave? They’re the ones who suck.
It was Michael Bolton in the movie Office Space (1999)
100% -- I celebrate his entire catalog.
Captchas are getting really tough. Took me 3 tries to get one right the other day.
found the bot
Hahahah it would be the ultimate irony if @rimu@piefed.social was a bot.
Haha that would certainly be humorous
Try asking ChatGPT to solve it for you, lol!
Do the real nerds start their own separate internet
What, like tor/i2p?
I want that nice middle ground 90's-2000's 'net:
There was a lot of weird stuff, there was scary places, but general browsing and surfing wouldn't USUALLY suddenly hit you with some NSFL / CSAM stuff that made you wish your brain had a "bleach port."
Stuff like TOR is really cool in theory, and absolutely necessary, but it still has that back-alley "Don't stray from the street lamps and guide posts and trust no one." vibe. Definitely not a place one can (easily) go around making friends.
That's why I just enjoyed watching Mutahar surf it, since he knows what he's doing lol.
I'm curious if people tend to use i2p as much.
And then there's that pesky network effect, of course: Secretive places on the web might finally break free of the corporate net, but the non-criminals inhabiting it will likely be those already deep into sweaty nerdery and a definite non-zero chance of untreated schizophrenia.
But, yeah, make something too accessible and it gets Eternal September'd into yet another extension of corporate / state hegemony...
I'm deeply invested in where we go from here, and how to make that future brighter as opposed to following the downward trend...
That's what I thought of. That and Gemini, Gopher, etc.
There is a concept called community computing. Tech savvy people host their own VPN with big tech replacement services and share it with their communities.
I'm so into this as an idea. The saddest part being I seem to be one of the few people I know willing to to the hardware/hosting/setup and I get this sinking feeling
"Nobody cares. They just want convenience." :(
I've thought a lot about trying to set up a VPN'd social media alternative before, where it's literally just friends and family sharing what matters to us without ads and stuff.
But with storage prices lately? That'll definitely have to wait. 😅
Here are a couple of difficulties:
- hardware limitations: with hardware shortages, the available computing is going to be limited. But luckily, since you are only serving to a couple dozen people tops, your current hardware should be able to handle it as is.
- technical support: as this concept becomes more popular, there will be more open-source projects and templates to help with people’s setup. There will be at least one IT person in every friend circle who wants to set it up and potentially federate with each other.
- adaptation: people will use nazi social for various reasons. That’s why VPN is such a genius idea. If they want to use legacy internet, they can turn it off temporarily. If they want to cut off big tech, they can turn it back on. Any second people are off big tech is a second you saved.
If you want to talk more, my dm is open :3
Reject Internet
Return to Ham Radio
(Meshtastic-Net? 👀
I have no clue how to do soldering stuff... where do you get a pre-built btw?)
You don't need to solder anything. There's a bunch of devices ready to go. For instance, the Liligo T-Echo.
But also don't expect it to be a replacement for the Internet. Right now it's just a local chat app, more or less.
Also, AI can talk and listen, so what's to say radio won't have the same problem if enough people start using it
I have a n8n workflow that automatically posts to my local meshtastic network when the space station is going to fly over (and be visible). Not AI, but if I can do it with python it would be trivial for AI.
Ah soldering a french word for wait till hot and poke.
I could see, eventually, a public key reputation system where content is signed and you can filter what’s coming at you to just keys you trust, keys your friends trust, however many Kevin Bacon’s of separation you want, or just the entire firehose.
Society will have to get better at managing their private keys first. And then publishing tools will need to bake in signing features.
I imagine you could do something with chains of trust. You trust yourself. You trust your friend you know in real life. To a lesser extent you trust people he trusts. But then one of them turns out to suck or be a bot, so now you trust your friend less.
"I laughed. My friend laughed. The toaster laughed. We shot the toaster."
To the Undernet!
There will be two internets: the first will require proof of identity and everything you do will be tied to that identity - forget anonymity forever. The second will be an "underground" one that is significantly more difficult for the average idiot to get onto. It'll use wherever replaces TOR since TOR is known to be vulnerable to tracking as well. There will be complete anarchy, and it'll be a real PITA to do anything. Nobody & no site will be trustworthy, and you'll have to exchange encryption keys & whatnot offline IRL with anyone you want to communicate with in a vaguely trustworthy fashion.
You read about Digg, didn't you?
That sounds exactly like I2P.
However, I think a global mesh network with an encrypted layer would be better. With micro transactions for delivery.
I think a global mesh network with an encrypted layer would be better. With micro transactions for delivery.
...We're going back to the postal service, but with fun little mystery ciphers!
With micro transactions for delivery.
Get out of here with that crypto shit. The delivery costs are practically nothing as network hardware has grown in capability. The only reason blockchain shitware has a cost associated with it is its monumental inefficiency due to the proof of work bollocks it has to do.
The costs of network infrastructure is always diminishing.
OK, how else can we stop bots, spam, and relentless scraping of everything?
You read about Digg, didn't you?
Busted
Lol I'm legit wondering what was meant by mentioning Digg, just saw an article it was gonna come back but got overwhelmed with bots and Ai?
Is there... more to it?
On the server-side you tarpit the AI bots, and on the client-side you use Kagi to make internet usable again.
Should we accept votes from accounts that never post or comment?
You can give unlimited upvotes but you earn one downvote per post or comment to give to another post or comment (so you can always downvote if you explain).
The bots will find a quiet corner to go jerk themselves off to pump the numbers.
I think votes are a bad idea in general.
Voting seems to have the objective of popular/good rising, the mediocre staying in place, and moving down the “junk”.
Are you suggesting just get rid of voting and replace with nothing or is there something better?
I'm thinking I'd like to try doing without it. The Fediverse isn't so large yet that it's really needed, maybe later when theres' multi-thousand-comment threads like Reddit has.
It only works when it’s small because you’re usually reading all responses on a post anyway. It really didn’t matter what order I read all four responses.
I would expect communities to grow over time if they can evolve in healthy ways. More diversity is usually good but then you’re digging for gold, the good comments, and the work digging was not only part of the fun but it made the find even better.
I think the difference is those were all people talking for the audience. If you and I have a direct conversation and try to avoid our audience, we might realize what made those comment threads better. You watched a conversation between two people and not a performance to be observed.
Then how do we keep these communities just the right size to make it work? To be fair, there are times I’m good with the easy dopamine hit and social media puts the pre-filtered pre voted treasure right there. No effort needed on my side.
It’s like there’s glimpses of the old internet here and there.
Yet the reader is already here.
So, if I understood him correctly, you should upvote the parent comment.
Yes, as I said, the Fediverse isn't so large yet that it's really needed.
You're equating votes on comments on a small Internet discussion forum with votes for the political control of your country? I think you've rather lost your perspective here.
I2P
Honestly I'm thinking about blocking all US traffic as part of a carte Blanche approach. It's too hard to figure out which traffic from there is bots and most are from there.
What's the best approach for this, geoscanning each visitor, or are there lists of IPs available to mass-block?
It woulds be good to know which is more computationally efficient... Whether you are geoblocking by location/IP or if you have a relatively up to date blocklist of IPs that are not trusted, or perhaps some combination of both.
I had looked into the a mix of Anubis and GeoIP blocking but I'm yonks away from determining what's best.
