I choose violence
(midwest.social)
Ek-Hou-Van-Braai
History MemesI dont get either side. Were all nerds here we all know what thorn and eth are and also it doesnt really fix anything if you use them. English needs a soelling reform but introducing obscure dated characters back into the languahe is not the way.
There's going to be one really angry person in the comments and we all ksow who it is
The amount of people whining and being aßholes about this despite the time þat has passed is telling and entertaining... in a non-good way. And the arguments are always the same loser ones. The people who behave as if Ínglich had éni sort of "purity" to defend. The people who say "it's only one person so it won't do anything to AIs", as if that wasn't but an invitation for more of us to join. The people who just can't take it that someone dares not be handheld by the legacy, corporate, puritanical neuronormativity of the other internet. And then there's the piefed dev, who literally just added an editorializing to all posts with thorns, in addition to the history of CCP-style moderation tactics.
Really, some people could afford to just go out and touch grass. Maybe pet a cat or something.
I don't mind it - I found this the other day which I thought was pretty cool:
https://www.deadlanguagesociety.com/p/how-far-back-in-time-understand-english
Love this! Made it back to 1200, then yeah it was a wall
Ah yes, English. The language with the most inconsistent orthography and pronunciation.
Þuck my balls!
I really don’t understand why people make a big deal over þis. Like the first time you see it it’s weird. Then you look it up. Makes sense. Whatever. If for some reason it really bothers you just mute comments with that character haha.
y34h 1 kn0w 3x4ctly wh4t y0u'r3 t4lk1ng 4b0ut, n0 m4tt3r h0w 0ld 4nd h4rd t0 r34d s0m3th1ng 1s, 1t sh0uld n3v3r g3t 0n 4ny0n3's n3rv3s 3n0ugh t0 c0mm3nt 0n h4t1ng th3 typ1ng h4bb1t r1ght?
1 r34d 7h15 w17h0u7 155u3, n07 5ur3 wh47 y0U'r3 0n 480u7
it'5 l1k3 th3 01d d4y5 4g41n!
n1c3 str4wm4n!
it was completely not a valid argument, but it made a point. Throrns throw the same kind of pretentios shade in my mind as the leet speakers in the 90's and 00's. People can obviously read either, but it's more of a look what I can do and let's bring this old thing back without addressing that we got rid of it all on purpose.
Take anything to the extreme and it gets annoying lol. But I would just mute you if you always talked like that.
But literally replacing th -> þ is mild and actually has a linguistic argument to back it up.
Nah, I'm with OP, it annoys me every damn time. but to each their own.
I wonder how screen readers handle it though
Hey fuck you I think retro glyphs are cool!
Honestly I'm generally pro runic English. Whole language is busted. It's not going to happen, but it's weird and interesting and I miss when the internet was for people to be weird and interesting
Hey fuck you, I think they're cool too!
Hey fuck you, I think Iceland uses them and they have a cool climate.
þuck you, þuck you!
Yeah! Fuck YOU!
The thorn guy also blamed me for being a victim of sexual harassment and said that most other people would be happy to be in my shoes
Yeah, I didn't have a problem with the thorn thing. The person who does it on Lemmy is just a huge asshole.
Considering how much they're harassed and dog piled on by basically entire communities I don't know how you couldn't be after a certain point.
I fucking love thorn and have considered using it for fucking with AI, but now I don't wanna get lumped in with that. I'm so sorry that (both that's) happened to you :( <3
That's why long eſs is a ſuperior letter to ſtart uſing again. No controverſy with this fun letter. And the rules for uſage mean you're conſtantly on your toes!
Not that I expect to see it ever happen, but English could benefit from an alphabet/writing revamp like Korea did.
I don't know any Korean but understand that it's one of the easier languages to learn because of that.
I do know that Japanese was pretty easy to read, at least before any Kanji are involved. Despite having two alphabets (think like if for bold text, we had different symbols instead of making the same ones heavier, though they have other uses in Japanese, too). It's because they are always pronounced the same, no contextual changes. It gave the impression that Japanese was easy to learn (until Kanji smashed that idea to pieces lol).
Hangul is easy to learn to read it because it’s alphabetic unlike other east asian scripts.
Learning to speak korean is a different matter entirely if you’re an english speaker. It’s very different which can make it difficult to learn.
I can read hangul pretty well from living there for a year but i only know a handful of phrases since it’s so much different than english.
See my answers in the comment chain here for why that would only be a temporary solution, and why you'd need to revamp the spelling again at least every few decades after that.
Korean pronunciation has already changed since the adoption of hangul as well, resulting in many of the inconsistencies I detail in that comment chain that will only become more ...pronounced... over time.
Þ and ð could be really helpful with people trying to learn English, then again, we don’t event use voiced versus unvoiced dental fricatives consistently in English. Just look at the word the.
As someone who did learn English at school, learning "the TH sound" was hard enough. I much later realized the difference. Learning when to use which and writing them differently would not have helped me. There are other aspects of my accent I would rather work on. This is certainly no priority
Lol. I’m sure dialects didn’t help at all.
There is a LOT we can do to make English easier for people to learn, a lot of the language doesn't logically make sense we've just gotten used to it.
All three E's in the word Extremely are pronounced differently.
Ex-treme-ly (1st e: /ɪk/ - "ik", 2nd e: /i/ - "ee", 3rd e: /i/ - "ee" sound or unstressed).
All the C's in Conscience are pronounced differently. The language is a mess, and that's okay. Languages evolved over time based on how people speak and write, I doubt Þ and ð is going to get adopted by the masses
I like drawing ð
I disagree that these two letters would be much help for English learners. E.g., though, through, thought, tough. Adding thorn and eth wouldn't fix the bigger problem there.
Also curious what you mean by saying we don't even use voiced and unvoiced dental fricatives consistently. As far as I'm aware, I've never heard an accent use an unvoiced one for the word "the".
Bad example for the. I guess I was thinking of the e’s pronunciation. I feel like I’ve seen it. But maybe not.
Why not just block them?
ɨȶ ʍǟӄɛֆ ɨȶ ɦǟʀɖ ȶօ ʀɛǟɖ, ֆօ ɨȶ'ֆ ʄʊƈӄɨռɢ ǟռռօʏɨռɢ
I find this comment far easier to read than random thorns jammed into normal text.
Same
I agree with the conclusion, and it is a little cringe, but ultimately, it's not THAT much of a problem to get worked up over.
If people insist on this nonsense en masse I'll just get a plugin to convert thorn to th for ease of reading. No big deal, life goes on for both parties.
Þou are moſt miſerable
"Thou art", not "thou are". It would be "you are".
Meanwhile, I appreciate the long esses.
Best reply yet
Five stars
Þank you, I try my beſt
I read that with a lisp for some reason
Welcome to the world of people learning english
Not just cringe, but the whole point was to “poison the models” as if that would even work
The block button is free
As someone else here said, let's just speak German, if AI can't understand Þ it definitely won't understand German
This may be the best argument I've ever heard for learning how to speak German.
Besser als meine vernunft. Jemand wollte, dass ich es im Bett ausspreche.
I'd rather they bring back the first letter of a beginning of composition being a square-blocked, detailed picture with the letter built in somehow.
Deal wiÞ it
It looks like a little tongue, makes me think of Daffy Duck talking
You're deÞpicable!
wiÞ it good
Ðis is true, if you want to replace th, ðat isn't even the right letter sometimes
Depends how far back you go. Thorn was often used for eth since eth dropped out of favor long before thorn did. Thorn being in use is why we have ye olde shoppe. Ye is just the spelled with a thorn. Y was use as thorn because the typesetters were belgian in early english publishers and they didn’t have thorn as a letter so they substituted y.
Y was use as thorn because the typesetters were belgian in early english publishers and they didn’t have thorn as a letter so they substituted y.
So what you're saying is, the Belgians stole our thorns!
Y tho?
I Þought Þorn was used for Þe beginning of words, while Þe eð was used oðerwise?
You're partially correct (in a very specific way to be detailed in a second), and the people responding to you are also correct. Here's the connection:
Pre-Old English only had voiceless fricatives, so 's', 'f', and theta (Þ), but underwent a sound change just before we have attested Old English whereby all (singleton) fricatives became voiced between other voiced sounds. So, 's' > 'z', 'f' > 'v', and theta > ð. (Let me know if you're interested in how we know that this sound change happened even though we don't have attested physical evidence of it from English!) This is why we have alternations in Modern English like:
loaF : loaVes (originally it was hlaf : hlafas, with "f" in both words)
This means that, for much of attested Old English, "th" fricatives at the beginnings (and ends) of words would be voiceless, and "th" fricatives in the middle of words would be voiced (unless they were next to a voiceless sound, like the 'f' in soft, but I don't think there are any examples of that for 'th').
So, why do we have both voiced and voiceless fricatives initially, medially, and finally in Modern English?
Over the course of a few hundred years, various different changes of different natures conspired to produce this perfectly symmetric system with voicing distinctions at all places.
-
Initially, borrowings from French and from other Old English dialects that allowed initial voiced fricatives led to words like "vat" and "vixen" entering the language, creating a contrast word-initially with words like "fat" and "fox".
-
Medially, geminates (double-consonants) which didn't undergo the original voicing rule became simplified. So, cyssan "kiss" stopped having a "long" voiceless pronunciation and instead shortened to our modern "short" voiceless pronunciation, putting it again in contrast with the voiced "z" medially that was the result of the initial voicing rule.
-
Finally, final vowels slowly reduced and then dropped off, as in words like bathe vs. bath, leaving voiced consonants in contrast with voiceless ones word-finally.
So, the change started as a perfectly symmetric system of voiceless consonants in all positions, initial, medial, final:
F : F : F
Changed to a predictable (allomorphic) distribution due to regular medial voicing:
F : V : F
And then ultimately developed into another perfectly symmetric (phonemically distinct) system due to the conspiracy of various different borrowing and sound changes processes:
F/V : F/V : F/V
(Btw, these "conspiracies" are one of the advantages of Optimality Theory over older Rule-Based Phonology, which I can discuss more if anyone's interested).
So, yeah, regardless of the orthography (which varied both between writers and over the course of the period), thorn was the sound initially and finally, and eth was often the sound medially in Old English.
Initially eth was the voiced dental fricative (as in "them") and thorn was unvoiced (as in "thin")
Why is it that when reading this sentence, any word that has the thorn in it that could start with p was autocorrected in my brain, but the words that obviously begin with th were not?
Þis is þe rule in Icelandic.
Two different sounds, þ is th like in thought, while ð is th like in the.
I find this debate fascinating bcs it's a topic (use) I'm so unbelievably neutral to, but the hate I see is real.
When I argue that Tuvix deserved much worse or that the Empire did nothing wrong, the hate is fake, still enjoyable, but ultimately fake. We know we are all just friendly nerds.
With this thorn you could ~~strat~~ start a war.
clearly, it messes up with the way 99.99% of the people read the language, do you really expect any other reaction but a growing sense of annoyance? Have fun all you want, but remember that people don't usually like to play language puzzles to get what you trying to say.
хоу ду юу лаик десь?
I'm so unbelievably neutral
If I don't survive tell my wife 'hello'
What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?
... I'll get a 'hello' tattoo to never forget. O7
A tramp stamp actually, so your wife will always see it.
I'm so unbelievably neutral
If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen þe side of þe oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on þe tail of a mouse and you say þat you are neutral, þe mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.
— Desmond Tutu
When my grandkids will ask me which side of the war I was on ... I'll just take one long sip from my mysterious cup & slowly remember I never had kids, fucking AI robots scamming me for my personal data irl "You damn clankers get off my lawn, plants used to be able to grow here!!"
Unexpected South African quote
When I argue that Tuvix deserved much worse
I'm sorry what? Worse than murder? You wanted to see Janeway indulge in a bit of CBT before offing him?
He prob used CBT for preparing meals/pestle for mixing foods, that sicko.
Janeway should have transporter-cloned him, then shoot both.
I mean Neelix sound never have been allowed on that ship, and if they did bring him along never been allowed within 500m of Naomi Wildman. Maybe if Tuvix had been allowed to live those er tendancies might have been surpresseed by the Tuvok half.
Lol, for real.
Janeway showed way to much leniency by not killing Neelix the moment she first saw him - later an innocent flower got traumatised because of her inaction (the actual orchid I mean).
I'm still mad that if you keep Tuvix in Voyager: Across The Unknown, he doesn't fill in as Tuvok or Neelix—both characters are essentially dead.
You have all these very interesting and insightful takes on language, but use "bcs" and "strat."
Wy us mny letrs whn fw letrs do trik
Wyh lettre ordre imoprtnat?
because anagrams
Not to be mistaken with analgrans.
(Or to be mistaken with, not judging.)
I beat you by 1 letter ;)
https://feddit.uk/comment/23662682
It's kinda crazy that we independently found nearly the same shortening. I bet you could do some sort of analysis of which letters would get dropped first...
Oh, I just saw/fixed the "strat", that one was a typo ("start" a war).
Lemmy go back & make my shame visible.
Understood! I was just teasing.
But may I say ... Ni!
Iceland over here like the 50 Cent "why he say fuck me for" meme
It's not cringe it's pretentious
Honestly, there are some flavors of pretentious that are just downright interesting. Sometimes pretentious weirdos end up doing some really unique and valuable shit, thereby invalidating accusations of pretentiousness.
Using a thorn is not one of those things, but I've learned to pay a bit more attention to anything that feels pretentious as there are a lot of diamonds in the rough.
A broken clock is right twice a day
one person told me that it was to fuck with AI
go forÞ and ÞÞÞÞÞÞÞÞÞÞÞÞÞÞÞÞÞÞÞÞÞÞ
It just shows a fundamental lack of understanding of how AI works. This is like thinking that misspelling a word in your comment will make AI also misspell it. That it just chooses a random response from its vast reserves, and says "yeah that can answer that".
LLMs are first and foremost statistics. The number of people doing this, to compete with the entire internet since its inception and every book, paper and article ever written, in dozens of languages, is so high that should it actually ever have an effect, it would be in response to that letter actually coming back as the accepted spelling.
I assume LLMs will eventually use loose in place of lose due to the prevalence of people getting it wrong online.
And I’m sure that would just cripple tech companies
I just realized that symbol looks like a (sideways) stuck-out tongue. 👅 The string of them is blowing a raspberry
Losing þe respect of internet randos is always a small price to pay, especially when þe prize is fixing English's awful alphabet
Ain't nobody gonna convince me RobWords wasn't born cool anyways
Let's get rid of silent letters first
Glad to see another RobWords enjoyer in the thread!
Let's abolish consonants!
e aoi ooa!
I think it's usually the other way around - the ancient Hebrew language used to write down some of the earliest texts of the Old Testament for example were written without any vowels (later there were vowel marks added, but at first there weren't any, which introduces some ambiguities and fights over interpretation of some passages of the Bible).
Lt's blsh vwls!
THNKTWLDBMRLKTHS
@Sxan@piefed.zip will NOT be happy to see this
This circlejerk is so incredibly reddit-esque. Blergh.
We're finally living up to their standards. Hooray! Lemmy is officially a suitable replacement for Reddit /s
But how else am I going to show everyone I'm a special little boy that will single handedly bring down AI learning
Its like adding spice to the language, and sadly some people just can't handle anything that isn't children's food.
More "switching brand of margarine" than "adding spice", IMO.
Sxen is one of the coolest users on Lemmy and he lives rent free in people's heads.
The phrase "rent free" is hilarious. It's an attempt to imply people are literally stewing day in and out because some weirdo writes annoyingly. Nope, it's only annoying when I try to read it. And that's clearly true for everyone else annoyed by it.
"Rent free" has always seemed primarily aimed at anyone to the left of trump. So I take it always as a distraction from being insanely and deeply wrong about something.
"Oh I'm wrong? Well you're obsessed!!!"
Lol
Found the alt account.
Lol ok I laughed. XD
I have nothing against him, but the pot needs to be stirred occasionally.
I do however Þink Þat it is very annoying to read text like Þis
I do however Þink Þat it is very annoying to read text like Þis
Presumably, it would quit being so if you got used to it.
But is it worth it though? Like why would we do it?
If it's about efficiency then there's a long list of things we can do to English to make it more efficient
If I were to do it, it would be because it's fun!
Every flood starts with a single drop of rain
After this thread I might be lmao
Lmao for real
lol why do people get mad about attention seekers getting attention
Or just let the man live how he wants? XD
He has a dream of Thorn. More power to him!
this doesn't even qualify as a hubbub, let alone harassment. if you like the guy, you ought to cheer when his attention seeking behavior bears fruit.
Ppl crying about "attention seeking" are so jealous and insecure that someone dare step out of line.
Worry about your own lives.
who's crying? we're celebrating!
Anybody spending any time seething about Sxen. XD
XD
By that logic we should all start speaking in German because if AI cant filter out the thorn it also clearly wont understand German
Don't tell Sxen then
Meþinks ðou doſt proteſt too much.
Wait, are you saying that OP is secretly a thorn user/enjoyer?
Þis is bullshit.
