why not the centre?
(midwest.social)
Deceptichum
Memes of ProductionSome centrists are, frankly, low information voters. They don't really have a conviction or do their research well. I love my friend and I owe him a lot, but he supported Trump because of the initial anti-war and immigration rhetoric. He's not far right, he supports Palestine and he's a Pole who despise the far right party that ruled his country for eight years; but he is one of the many single and lonely men who feels lost and doesn't have a direction. His background and profile are those preyed upon by the right, even if the person is of varying flavour of centrist.
The right don't really need to convince people to join them, they just have to sow enough doubt to prevent the left from being a coherent movement.
The left-right spectrum is a bit of a capitalist sham anyways. class noises
“Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.”
MLK
Guys, just don't be poor and it's not an issue!
::: spoiler spoiler /s, if not obvious :::
the number of times someone has said to me "you're just mad because you're poor"
and it's like… obviously i'm mad because i'm poor! i'm mad we live in a system that denies people their basic dignities by creating a possibility for people to be this thing called poor. but they think they have money based on virtue, and i don't based on some sort of failing
Don't forget that the same system teaches all the regular people that wealth is a sign of virtue. That silly thought is not limited to the people who have the wealth. Much the opposite, in fact.
They also like to pretend that luck is minor part of it or even a non-issue. It's crazy to imagine how much good could result from eliminating the concept that people are where they are solely because they "deserve" it and they "worked" for it.
I worked for the stuff I have too. That doesn't mean I am not incredibly lucky.
There's no such thing as a centrist.
“Centrist” is just what conservatives, corporatist parasites, and / or fascists call themselves when they don't want their victims to realise they're conservatives, corporatist parasites, and / or fascists.
I don't think this is quite true. People that call themselves centrists can come from a benign place. In my mind, the folks that call themselves centrists tend to mainly care about preserving the status quo, no matter what it is.
They'll usually use terms like "big tent", "adult in the room", and if they went to school "realpolitik". Usually privileged, they don't understand the urgency for change for those in need, so they'll balk at any method that may actually achieve some progress for the marginalized and underprivileged. Usually they'll say some wise, enlightened thing about "optics".
And they'll tell themselves that they care. They'll tell themselves and others that they're the good guys. They'll watch CNN and read the economist, and they'll tell themselves they're informed. They're always on the right side of history, but only ever when it's already too late. I think they genuinely don't know.
You're both right and wrong.
“Centrist” is just what conservatives, corporatist parasites, and / or fascists call themselve
This is true.
There’s no such thing as a centrist.
This isn't. There absolutely are centrists, it's just that their voices are drowned out by the loud extremes, AND they're being labelled as leftists by the right, and "rightists" by the left.
Look, all the differences between any form of right wing and left wing come down to one single difference in thougt: right wingers think people are livestock that must be corralled and controlled in order to maximise the profit that can be extracted from them; left wingers think that people are... well, you know, people.
That's a binary choice. There's no middle ground between considering people people and considering them product. Don't come at me with “but some people”, you monstrous bastards. Any so called centrist saying otherwise is either a right winger trying to control you and extract profit from you, or an idiot scammed by one into promoting their bullshit.
People are people. All of us. And if you want them to treat you like you'd want them to treat you, you'd better do the same back, not because of some religious nonsense, but because otherwise society collapses into a brutal free for all, and your chance of coming on top is infinitesimally small, no matter how loaded a hand you were born with. And even if win the bastard lottery and end up on top, so what? You'll die soon enough like any other of us, shitting and pissing yourself as you go, and you can't take any of your stolen wealth with you. You'll just be remembered as that monstrous bastard who took everything and gave back nothing and made life worse for everyone else, may you rest in piss. Might as well use that wealth to help people and make the world better for everyone, but of course you wouldn't have been able to amass all that stolen wealth to start with if you had even a shade of humanity in your rotten mind.
When the choice is treating people as people, or not, there's no middle ground, there's no appeasement, there's no compromise.
You're either for humanity, or against it.
Realists (who sometimes appear to be centrists) wish many leftists would value actual harm reduction over purity.
Where is this "actual harm reduction" that I keep hearing about?
Surely you can think of some cases in your political life where you had to choose between a bad and a worse option?
Simple things, like voting strategically for the least bad of two options in FPTP voting systems, even if the candidate isn't perfect. Like voting for Lincoln (racist white supremacist) over Douglas (enslaver).
Promoting and voting for the best candidate possible who is likely to win their election, even when they aren't as good as you wish they were.
where you had to choose between a bad and a worse option?
Sure but just as often the choice is between good, bad, and worse and people are looking at bad like good doesn't exist
"Come on, guys, sacrificing some people in our society so we can have rich people is better than sacrificing alot of people in our society so we can have filthy stinking rich people!"
It's almost like the trolley problem was created to wrestle with the horrible choices life sometimes puts in front of us, instead of just giving us something to talk about in philosophy class.
The trolley problem typically illustrates how easy the choice is. Like in this case: Sacrifice no people so elites can live in luxury, sacrifice some people so elites can live in luxury, or sacrifice alot of people so elites can live in greater luxury. The obvious answer is sacrifice no people because elites living in luxury is of no benefit to anyone but the elites and if they didn't live in luxury they would still get their needs met.
“Come on, guys, sacrificing some people in our society so we can have rich people is better than sacrificing alot of people in our society so we can have filthy stinking rich people!”
You got it backwards.
It's: "come on, guys, people are afraid of big sweeping changes, so - since filthy stinking rich people control the narrative - it's better to make changes where some people will be sacrificed for the rich, than sacrificing all people for the rich".
And your reply is the perfect example of a leftists who values purity over harm reduction.
people are afraid of big sweeping changes
Who? Who are these people?
I'm pretty sure you just mean rich people are afraid of any progress - especially because progress is a direct threat to their privilege.
No normal person is afraid of getting their basic human needs. I think the complete opposite is the case. People are afraid of the extreme deprivation which is a foundation for capitalism.
harm reduction
You keep using this term without any evidence of it existing.
Who? Who are these people?
Around 90% of the population of this planet.
I’m pretty sure you just mean rich people are afraid of any progress
No.
No normal person is afraid of getting their basic human needs
That's false - a lot of people think that them getting their basic human needs would collapse something and cause irreparable damage. It's bullshit, of course, but people - in general - are just by default afraid of change.
People are afraid of the extreme deprivation which is a foundation for capitalism
That's absolutely false. I mean, come on, look around. If that were true, we wouldn't have a resurgence of right-wing, liberal capitalism parties all across the board, and the US wouldn't be what it is!
You keep using this term without any evidence of it existing.
I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean. Could you elaborate?
You're NOT reducing harm, you're steadily increasing harm when most of our problems could be easily solved by ending harm.
by ending harm
That's the issue, really. People won't get behind anything new or radical etc., so the options usually are "getting worse slowly" or "getting even worse right now", and picking that latter is not better than the first one. What's the solution? Fuck if I know, but allowing the latter to happen cannot be it
You're acting like Barn Raising is new or radical. Ya didn't use to need to go into a lifetime of debt so bankers could live in luxury, the whole village would pitch in, get together and build a house for you.
I don't disagree at all, but looking at the state of the world right now, even building that damn barn appears to be too radical for way too many people. Selfishness and greed are the virtues of today it seems
People in power won’t get behind anything new or radical
Improved. But yeah, the privileged constantly endeavor to violently maintain their privilege.
Exactly. By assuming the harm will carry on, these people consent to it
OK, please elaborate on how having some but not all people get out of the shit-hole is not reducing harm. Oh, wait, it's not even "not reducing harm", it's "steadily increasing harm"!
Now if we don't have destitute or uneducated people, where are we going to get children for pedo billionaires to rape? Bet you didn't think of that human rights violation, dirty commies!!!
Leftists wish many centrists (who always appear to be right-wingers) would value human life over 'harm reduction' a.k.a. perpetuating a system that causes widespread harm, death, and suffering.
Imagine how much better the world could be if we didn't have to constantly fight with 'centrists' to do the right thing instead of them trying to meet the far-right in a compromise.
Let's do a thought experiment.
You have a group of people who grumble about the status quo but are fed information that any change to the status quo is bad for them.
There's a filthy rich dude who controls the information they are being fed.
You have two options:
- Campaign for the removal of the filthy rich dude, redistribution of wealth, hard left turn, and - essentially - a revolution.
- Campaign to get them slightly better protection, and a bit more money. Get them comfortable with that, and then campaign for more changes.
Number 1 has around 0,00001% of succeeding.
Number 2 has around 30% of succeeding.
Which do you choose?
What exactly do you think they are trying to reduce the harm to if not human life?
Property. Wealth.
They're trying to reduce the harm to their own privilege.
You never hear people talking about "harm reduction" for palestinians, etc.
It's strictly about keeping chuck and nancy happy.
In a sane country, centrism means you still support universal healthcare. Obviously not in the US and overtime less and less in other countries.
Centrism is a myth, it's right wing for people too afraid to call themselves as such. You can't sit in the middle of capitalism. You are either for or against it.
Let's look at French centrism, the proposed 2026 budget included funding cuts for healthcare. It was only after protest and having to negotiate with left parties that they saw an increase. If left to their own devices, centrists would eventually and slowly kill of healthcare through a million tiny cuts. Centrists don't support it, it's just bad optics for them to be visibly against it.
Centrism is a myth, it’s right wing for people too afraid to call themselves as such.
That's self-identified "Centrists" in the US who inhabit somewhere in the middle of the Overton window. Centrism in less relative terms is generally Liberals and they range from Center Left to Center Right.
But left and right isn't just capitalism vs not capitalism... There's a lot of other factors. But, there's also things like social capitalism and social democracy that keep most of capitalism, while including checks and balances to reduce the destruction of society. I'd expect most centrists to want something like that, even if they don't appreciate/understand the name.
Hey now, I'm a centrist!
I'm just the center of the left. You know, where respect for humanity exists.
(i couldn't resist, sorry)
This is a "don't look at what the right's doing!" kind of post.
It appears this is a Centrists are Right Wingers in sheeps clothing post. The opposite of "don't look at what the right's doing".
Or maybe just pointing out that our "center" is far right.
All Center is either far right, right or tumbling to the right
Oxymoron
Then it's certainly muddling everything up and making the terms all confusing if that's the point.
This is looking at the right.
And this is why the right will always win. You can never be left enough to not get into arguments with "real" leftists.
The bar that almost every Leftist expects you to pass is "exploiting people is wrong" which is an easy fucking purity test if you're not a sociopath.
No, it's that you're not left if you're arguing for keeping capitalism. It's a very low bar to pass.
Leftists disagree with each other on basically every other aspect of how society should run, but not this one.
They're worse than conservatives. At least with conservatives you know they're assholes. Centrists are also assholes but they waste so much time trying to convince people that they're not.
The problem with Centrists is that they have similar sensibilities as the Left but not the convictions. Neither wants to see homeless people suffer on the streets but Centrists are content with blowing smoke up their own ass (out of sight out of mind) while the Left will insist on providing housing.
This is such a wild statement. Conservatives are way bigger assholes, but that's overshadowed by the fact that they're more obvious? Centrists are at least trying to be reasonable.
Centrists are at least trying to be reasonable.
Not in my experience. They don't want to appear to be what they are, assholes. Therefore they will nod and agree with progressive policies but when push comes to shove then they unleash the usual bullshit, "now is not the time", "you're asking for too much", "how can we afford it?", "baby steps", and so on.
Take universal health care. I'd rather not have my time wasted by a conservative simply saying, "lol, hell no, you commie" than deal with the bullshit hand wringing of a centrist where they expend so much energy trying to convince themselves they're not the bad guys.
That's where you and I differ I suppose. If you waste your time, that's on you. I'd much rather talk to someone who's at least open to a concept than a conservative that says "No, and actually I'm gonna vote for the exact opposite"
I think we differ in that you take these people at face value. Let me know if you ever find a centrist who walks the walk.
I know many. Their cardinal sin is being relatively uninformed, not being deceptive.
No you don't. If they walked the walk they wouldn't be centrists, would they?
You're ascribing their centrism to ignorance, I don't really care if it's that, or avarice, or any other motivation. If you're a centrist then by definition you're in the middle, you find more or less equal fault with both the left and the right. You find virtue more or less equally in the positions of both progressives and MAGA. Think about that for a minute in the context of everything that's going on in the world.
Yes, these people are assholes.
Whatever you say buddy, you can't learn anything if you start with your conclusions and twist facts to justify them. You've made up your mind, and the left will continue to suffer because of you and the leftists like you. Maybe consider talking to people in real life instead of circle-jerking in radical online spaces. Real people are not the caricatures you make them out to be.
Trying to sound reasonable is far from the same as trying to be reasonable.
If they were trying to be reasonable they wouldn't be centrists, they'd be as far away as possible from conservative, corporatist parasites, fascits, and similar critters, instead of trying to appease them.
But of course “centrists” aren't trying to be reasonable. “Centrist” is just the label those parasites use when trying to disguise their nature from their victims.
You're assuming that everyone else has the same information as you, and that they choose to ignore it deliberately. Everyone learns different things about the world at different times, it's unreasonable to conclude that anyone who differs from you is doing so deliberately.
You've started with your conclusion and you've worked backwards to find your reasoning.
The entire reason that ICE is in the streets is because Trump wants to beat Obama and Biden's deportation numbers. He is just too stupid to do it in a way that isn't stupid.
What part of that is centrist?
People who believe in Liberal Democracy (like Biden and Obama) typically occupy the political center.
I wouldn't go so far as to say it's the entire reason, but so? Deporting undocumented immigrants isn't an unreasonable policy. You might disagree with borders in the first place, but that's a pretty radical position. The being in the streets doing things stupidly is a much bigger issue than believing in borders.
The unreasonable part is the US setting up a system that makes immigration illegal but encourages it so that farmers can have a cheap supply of exploitable labor then deporting said immigrants so politicians can use fear of "the other" to manipulate voters and appeal to bigots. Farm workers use to come to the US for the harvest, get paid, and go home. Now getting here is so much work it's only worth it if you stay longer then one season.
And that's ignoring the fact that the political and economic uncertainty that drives people to immigrate here in the first place is constantly the result of actions made by the US.
Not that I believe in any of that borders nonsense anyway. Borders exist to limit the power of states, not the movement of people.
And there you go, that right there is the difference we are talking about.
I think it is bad to round up kids and working people and throw them into cages without trials or rights or representation.
You think that is OK as long as the guys doing it aren't hassling white people in the streets while they do it.
That is the difference between a leftist and a centrist.
The part that you have a hard time understanding is that your position is a LOT closer to the Republican position than you care to admit.
What? That's not my position, I'm not a centrist, I'm not telling you my personal political positions, I am describing centrists as they appear to be and not some sinister devious caricature.
When I say something is "reasonable", I'm not saying it's correct,. I'm just saying that it was arrived at through an attempt, successful or not, to reach a balanced and realistic solution.
No one in the center thinks rounding up kids and working people and throwing them in cages is OK. Most people who aren't MAGA aren't cheering for cares. But people do want some kind of record keeping and security to keep out actual criminals.
And the white people in the streets is what makes headlines, so that's when the people who aren't regularly plugged into the news find out about these things.
I'm not singing their praises for not taking an interest in the first place, or not being more vocal in their discontent, but I'm not going to pretend that being ignorant or conflicted about throwing kids in cages is worse than throwing the kids in the cages.
Yes the centrists have many failings, but I don't see the benefit in framing them as the real problem. Just seems like it takes out focus off the real problem.
No one in the center thinks rounding up kids and working people and throwing them in cages is OK.
Then why are you constantly telling us we have to vote for people who do? Why is this literally the only position centrists have on immigration? Remember when Biden was really proud of his deportation numbers and used them to dunk in Trump and the dnc ate it up?
When we only get one option to oppose fascism and that option decides to also be fascists, then yeah, they are the reason we have fascism.
Again, not me telling you that, and still missing the point. The fascists are the reason we have fascists. They are the enemy, the centrists are just bad allies.
I'm not opposed to criticizing centrists, I'm opposed to distracting ourselves and acting against our interests by claiming bad allies are the real enemy. People like to feel like they figured out the real threat, and it was secretly some seemingly innocuous force. But usually, the obvious threat is obvious for a reason.
I think deporting undocumented immigrants is asinine. We are a country founded on immigration you clown.
There's a logic to it. I may not agree with the logic, but it is there. For what it's worth personally I agree with you.
Something something "white moderate".
I don’t think they’re necessarily “bad people”, but leftists can be really annoying when they argue using straw men, like OP.
The fact that you think it's a straw man and not the thing that's literally happening every day is why I think you're a bad person.
Well I’m not. You’re just kind of dumb. Go rip a bong and listen to some more Chapo. You realize you’re almost 40 now, right?
Scratch a liberal...
Muh civility 😭
