politics Vincent Oriedo, a biotechnology scientist, had just such a question. What lessons have been learned, he asked, from Harris’s defeat in this vital swing county in a crucial battleground state that voted for Joe Biden four years ago, and how are the Democrats applying them?
“They did not answer the question,” he said.
“It tells me that they haven’t learned the lessons and they have their inner state of denial. I’ve been paying careful attention to the influencers within the Democratic party. Their discussions have centred around, ‘If only we messaged better, if only we had a better candidate, if only we did all these superficial things.’ There is really a lack of understanding that they are losing their base, losing constituencies they are taking for granted.”
“We have set ourselves up for generational loss because we keep promoting from within leaders that that do not criticise the moneyed interests. They refuse to take a hard look at what Americans actually believe and meet those needs.”
Unless and until we shut down the propaganda channels serving hostile foreign interests, it's going to be a long, painful struggle.
We have set ourselves up for generational loss because we keep promoting from within leaders that that do not criticise the moneyed interests
Evergreen quote-
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair
We need to organize. The Democrats aren't going to be part of it, because, with very few exceptions, they're useless. Let's hope at least they stay out of the way instead of doing like Fetterman and kissing the ring.
“The things Harris said, like she was going to give $25,000 for people to buy their first home, there were a lot of people said she was giving their money away to people who didn’t deserve it. It cost her votes. We were trying to tell her that.”
What's the answer to that? On the face of it, this says that the electorate don't want public money spent on helping other people who need help. How do you achieve anything other than conservatism with such an electorate? The only thing I can think is that you have to promise to help more of the electorate, and that the money will be come from the very rich. In other words, the only counter to conservatism is a commitment to actual wealth redistribution, and to going up against the selfish interests of the super-rich. That's not yet even socialism, but it's still further to the left that the Democratic Party is willing to go. For now, its leadership would rather lose elections to fascists than challenge billionaires.
Giving everyone 25K means housing prices go up by 25K. It was a very bad idea and would benefit the billionaire class.
What should have been done was capping rent and building more houses.
It wasn't "give everyone 25k"
Be more disingenuous.
Indeed only people who use it to buy a house. If everyone has 25K more, then housing prices go up by 25K.
Capping rent makes more housing less likely. Are you suggesting government built housing?
Not allowing one or two private equity firms to own a lions share of the market would help.
Government built housing is how the UK solved the problem last time. Then Thatcher sold it off and there hasn't been any real interest in doing it again despite all the same problems coming back.
Non profit housing, be it through companies owjed by the municipality or cooperatives who provide housing to their members are very effective means to limit rents and provide housing.
In many European countries it used to be normal for a large part of the rental market to be in the hand of such entities or even housing built to be buyed to own by lower middle class families.
Incidently rents started exploding after a lot of these got privatized in the 80s to 00s.
Well, I'm not in denial. This country is full of fucking idiots. The next Democratic presidential candidate should be a celebrity that promises to achieve world peace and full gay space communism. Apparently empty promises and celebrity are what win elections.
I think you may have missed the point a bit. It's exactly these 'empty promises' which have been the democrats issue over the past 30 years.
They get elected on messages like 'make the economy work work everyday americans' and then once in office they prioritize the status quo and making sure that nothing major changes. This benefits the wealth and damages everyday people, many of whom voted for them in the hopes that the democrats would improve their situation.
As awful as much of their platform is, the Republicans have proven that they aren't scared to break things and make big changes. This appeals to many voters who feel let down by empty promises.
What you been smoking, my friend?
Next? I'm sorry, but democracy continues to be dismantled. The train has left the station. Trump already had 4 years of training and now with direct support from Musk.... Hate fear and more hate mongering...and Trump is using it.... So are accusations of election meddling etc.... fuck why hasn't there been that accusation even from Democrats? That's it.. Its game over.
All those highly secured nuclear secrets or files in the restroom at the golf club... anyone who steals something like that... also steals/cheats in the election. But not 1 accusation... Republicans as well as Democrats don't want democracy anymore. A convicted highly criminal traitor to the country and enemy of the state becomes president without riots etc.... The Democrats who are now just pointing at the Republicans with "I told you so" but not doing a riot or anything else are just as hostile to democracy.
Just look at the responses, complete denial. The american people overwhelmingly didn't want kamala, the democrats thought they could pull another Bernie and we would just do what they wanted. No, it doesn't work that way, and no they haven't learned their lesson. They won't so long as they retain a modicum of power. Democrats and Republicans are the problem.
Let's see:
Democrat voter base is steadily more and more changing from the blue collar worker to the more educated, college/university citizen.
Problem: there are more blue collar workers than university/college educated citizens
Part of the democrat campaign zeitgeist is that if you don't vote for them, then you are [EXPLETIVE].
Problem: most people don't like to vote for the party with members that calls them slurs
Democrats think that Kamala lost because she is a woman
Problem: for the average voter, gender doesn't matter in any of the key areas a president has to manage
For the collectivists, the average male voter is assumed to be privileged, racist, bigoted, homophobic, millionaire, uneducated, emotionally stunted, a rapist, a Nazi, not people, and so on
Problem: assuming this is true for every male voter in the sweeping criticism of the patriarchy has left the male voter disenchanted and being pushed into the only people who are listening to them and their problems of unemployment, lack of financial security, health issues, and so on.
There is much more but yeah you guys tried to PIVOT the entirety of your message from the key 4 years like 2 months before the end of the campaign and you couldn't even do that correctly.
No such thing as a "Patriarchy" when you can falsely accuse a man & get them fired & especially when you have several welfare programs that are for women only
OH boy here come those downvoters (See, you leftists will never win like this)
Anyone who whines about downvotes should be downvoted, since they are off-topic.
Patriarchy is not a binary issue. Even at the height of Patriarchy, there will still be issues where women have the upper hand. In today's world, Patriarchy has steadily been weakened by people's efforts, but that doesn't mean your system is no longer based on Patriarchy.
In order to uproot Patriarchy, you need to destroy the whole system and rebuild from the ground up, which is of course, impractical and clearly haven't been done.
If you strongly believe you no longer have a Patriarchy in the US, please show me when did this over turning event that uprooted Patriarchy from your system occurred.
Oh There's no need to "Believe", that would imply there's no factual evidence https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve9ZZNfytns
This not just a US thing, it's a global thing No such thing as a "Patriarchy" (If women are in power in a patriarchy then it isn't much of a patriarchy now is it, also feminists demand men to be tied down to their gender roles while demanding women to be exempt from their, when they should be demanding to free both genders)
Gynocentrism on the other hand is very real
Give me a formal definition of Patriarchy.
Do you actually believe this?
Why believe when I can prove
This is going to be interesting, if you reject this then it'll be clear that you are not interested in having a proper debate
You're so full of shit.
Says the person who is made out of shit, but then calling you shit would be an insult to shit
In a 2-party system why should Dems even bother trying to change themselves or how the party operates? I mean they are (or used to be anyway) guaranteed to be voted in again at some point in the future.
As for the last election imo they just didn't look far enough ahead to see the danger of Trump 2.0. They dilly dallied around with dumb shit, only paying attention to billionaires, completely ignored Americans' views on Isreal, showed almost zero interest in reigning in food/housing conglomerates' profits, etc.
Trump got massive gains in several key demographics that are key to long term party success. Most notably Hispanics, which are closing in on the predominant demographic. The wins for men and non college educated people are also a problem, they aren't as important, but you can't afford to lose such large demographics by such a large margin.
While no Republicans have really shown to be able to maintain the a fervent base like Trump's, it's extremely risky to just trust that people will flock back to the Democrats in a future Trumpless election. A more palatable republican with 75% of Trump's base could easily see a Reagan level landslide victory.
Hear me out, what if they try running an even more genocidal candidate.
Well, the more genocidal candidate won I guess.
They just need to run an even older candidate, but it can't be Bernie.
The older candidate won.
It's not really the age itself, it's not a competence issue, there's just so many old people because that's a demographic that's overrepresented in the few people whose soul has completely rotted out and is willing to sell out humanity for some marginal personal benefit, and having the skill set to be able to do it.
Oh shit this might just work, GenoSanders when
To the Left, to the LEFT!
Pivot, PIVOT!
Honestly I think this article is completely wrong. I'm convinced modern elections are 100% based on vibes and so better messaging and a better candidate would have meant a great deal.
But to add to that - Trump and his idiot base had been messaging and memeing for four years starting with Covid and masks and then inflation and 'I did that' stickers of Biden at the gas pump. Biden had barely done any messaging even up until the point he dropped out which, in the social media era, should be obviously big fucking warning signs of a losing campaign.
EDIT - which is not to say I don't think the Dems need to change in other ways because they absolutely do.
I don't know what all these comments are about he said it perfectly.
They refuse to take a hard look at what Americans actually believe and meet those needs
And they won't. Which is why they are a sunk cost. Ameicans will keep investing in it because it's, "the only othe choice" and the party will lose again and again.
2016 was 8 years ago people and the DNC has not evolved in the least.
People want real fucking change. One man stood up against a massive evil health insurance company and regular people from all sides of the political spectrum support him.
Dems could have won if they were willing to do the same and no one would even need to be hurt to do it.
Naturally, there are a host of other problems mentioned in this thread. The trouble is that there is too much free $peech from the ruling class in politics.
They want us to think real change is impossible.
I think for people like me, the biggest fuck you was from Obama. He ran on hope and change. He ran on at least a public option. And he went into the office and literally shut down the ground operation that swept him into his position and then basically spent 8 years appeasing Republicans despite the fact that people wanted transformational change. That's why they picked him over Clinton. He delivered Romneycare, bank bailouts, and drone wars.
and drone wars
I'd have been fine with the US killing even more Al-Qaida and Taliban members, even those that happened to be US citizens fighting alongside their comrades in a combat zone. Every single one of them would be about right. And if you're squeamish about drones, let's be real, you are really just squeamish about warfare, because every other form of killing in warfare is just as brutal and most are far more indiscriminate.
Also, as soon as Trump got in the first time, he changed rules of engagement to take less account of civilian casualties.
Kamala was running on "Isn't Trump a weirdo?", but that was working so she stopped.
The DNC does not want to win if it means causing actual change.
They pivoted from "Trump is a weirdo" to "Dick Cheney likes us!" like the absolute morons they are.
I love how "We were too woke!", and I"m like "Woke? Is that what you call having Thanksgiving with Penis Cheney?"
And when people wonder why it’s so hard to get out the vote, I think this is a key reason why. I’m old enough to have gone to Obama’s rallies, knock on doors for his campaign as a volunteer, vote for him and watch with joy as he won.
Hope and change. After the George W Bush presidency and the war on terror, it finally seemed like it was time for the pendulum to swing back.
And then every issue they came to the table with a position already in the center in hopes of appealing to the republicans who would then hold their breath and kick their feet and then it would slide further and further to the right until they were holding up romneycare as a progressive victory while also getting completely destroyed in the court of public opinion for passing romneycare.
I knew a lot of people that were very excited for Obama the candidate and completely disillusioned by Obama the president.
And I await the apologists to come out and tell me how he had to do it this way, they only had a super majority for a few weeks. Sure if the republicans have the slimmest majority they rewrite the tax codes and give away trillions to the wealthiest, and if they are in the minority they still somehow get their policies passed. But when democrats have power, well you see, government takes time. They can’t possibly just have the bill ready and call for a vote, you see, that’s just not how it works.
You can only tell people so many times. Vote blue and we promise this time, this time, we will make it better. I know last time we didn’t, but it was because of the blue dogs, or Joe Lieberman, or Joe Manchin. Sure, we have no plan to get rid of those people or other spoilers and we will doggedly support them in every primary… but somehow this time will be different.
And I await the apologists to come out and tell me how he had to do it this way, they only had a super majority for a few weeks. Sure if the republicans have the slimmest majority they rewrite the tax codes and give away trillions to the wealthiest, and if they are in the minority they still somehow get their policies passed. But when democrats have power, well you see, government takes time. They can’t possibly just have the bill ready and call for a vote, you see, that’s just not how it works.
Every single time!
I still find it frustrating to hear this line every single time. Like somehow every single member of congress during that time was hyper focused on the ACA bill, couldn't have pushed for their own legislation to be pushed forward.
I've had plenty of wake up calls, and every time I do, someone calls me weird for the dog whistles becoming fog horns.
And I await the apologists to come out and tell me how he had to do it this way, they only had a super majority for a few weeks.
They will all be miraculously absent when Republicans change the senate rules to get rid of the filibuster.
I remember watching the debates during the Obama campaign and thinking "this guy is just as pro big business as the republicans". The only candidate who was talking about the need to limit the political power of corporations/finance was Ron Paul.
Bernie to Trump pipeline
Y’all stay on Obama’s dick.
Maybe you didn't read that comment? I think you got it backwards.
I think that the Liberal ideology, with a capital L, is what is being revolted and rebelled against at a very fundamental level by a majority of America. But the Democrats can’t see it,
Winning is detrimental to the party.
At a certain point, they realized that they make more money when they lose. The end goal of both parties isn't to win, it's to make the most money for their members. The democrats just happen to have stumbled into a situation where they have a perverse incentive to fuck things up just enough to barely lose so that they can keep their funding up.
Who upvotes this shit? Jesus Christ this is idiotic.
You drank the Kool aid.
Dems have won every national election except for 2 in the past 10 years.
While that's true, choosing to vote for Trump, a third-party, or not at all is like saying, "I don't like this ham sandwich and I don't like my sandwich choices... so I'm going to eat this dog-turds-and-radioactive-glass-shards sandwich instead!"
This country is fucked.
Edit: Rather than respond below to every comment, thought I'd clarify a few things here.
- I never said Democrats didn't fuck up. They certainly did.
- But - and this is important - we can't ignore the roles that racism, sexism, and above all misinformation played. To pretend there was none, and that vast swaths of the electorate didn't fall for it, would be disingenuous.
Democrats have moved to the right, and hurt themselves doing so. That is true. But they are still objectively superior to Republicans in every conceivable way. People who voted Republican voted for the Leopards Eating People's Faces party because they were angry about Democrats being imperfect, and their faces will be eaten.
DISINFORMATION, not misinformation.
You're missing the lesson too, ironically.
The voters didn't like what the Democrats were offering them, they wanted change, and they wanted it badly enough that they went ahead and ate that dog-turd-and-glass-sandwich.
You're saying "they shouldn't have eaten that, the sandwich the Democrats were offering was better." Okay, well, they did it anyway. So you're wrong. The Democrats were wrong. They've been wrong multiple times now. They're doing the "Am I so out of touch? No. It's the voters who are wrong." Meme.
America's a democracy. The voters aren't wrong, as much as you might personally disagree with their choice. If you want a different government you have to offer them one that they'll vote for. That may require some compromises, but that's part of democracy.
I hope that they get it this time. This is the second time in recent memory that they've made this mistake. Even Biden's election was closer than it should have been. I really hope that the DNC gets its head out of its ass and cleans house, but articles like this are disheartening.
I live in a deep blue state. Family is all very blue. They have learned absolutely nothing. They all think what the Democrats did was perfect. Kamala was flawless. She didn't get elected because America is racist AND sexist.
They genuinely believe that there was nothing they could have done to improve.
I think they are gonna have to learn this lesson a few more times before they pull their heads outta their ass finally. I hope.
She didn’t get elected because America is racist AND sexist.
This talking point is just so Democrats have an excuse to keep AOC out of the 2028 race in favor of some centrist turd barge.
What has AOC done that Kamala hasn’t?
Have positions to Biden's left.
The blue bubble is as heard to burst as the red bubble. My mom lives on msnbc. There is not a moment that its not on just like my dad lives on fox. They are completely in their own different worlds made of fiction. Dad thought there was no way Trump could loose to Biden just as my mom thought there was no way Hillary/Harris could loose to Trump. Both had no moment of realisation, no moment of reflection just disbelief that they live in a bubble. Its always someone else's fault. Dad blamed the Democrats and mom blames the left.
To me it's obvious that Chomsky was right about manufacturing consent.
MSNBC is liberal Fox News. They both are the circuses while the public is clamoring for breadcrumbs.
To me it’s obvious that Chomsky was right about manufacturing consent.
Always has been.
It won't happen. Every election in the last 25 years, including midterms, where the democrats tried to play to "moderate republicans", they got wiped out.
You have to conclude that they'd rather chase after "moderate Republicans" and lose than chase after the left and win.
and they keep trying to dislodge "sane" republicans because they'd rather maintain centralized power than risk a grass roots movement distributing power to the masses. dyed in the wool democrats prefer fascism to meaningful reform
Obama was amazingly effective at the ballot box, but to the established Democratic power structure he was dangerous. Luckily for them he merged himself into their structure rather than maintaining his separate power base and taking on individual in-party resistors like Trump has, but it was a warning about what could happen and they took that lesson to heart. They do not want anything resembling another Obama.
Yep, that's why Hillary was basically in control of the party via Debbie Wasserman-Shultz and how much the DNC effectively owed Clinton at that point.
People want to memory hole that aspect of it but it was 100% a response to the Obama presidency an attempt to grab a stranglehold on the party which she used to shut down Sanders and force her nomination. People often forget this is the same year the Republicans rejected Jeb Bush. America didn't want Bush v. Clinton again, and Trump and Sanders were the only voices offering anything different. Democrats shut down their nascent progressive wing, and Trump just steamrolled the Republicans because he's a fucking bully and those guys bend over and take it for bullies.
Typical leftist using the rigged theory just like MAGA.
So if Dems are never left enough for you. Wouldn’t that mean they’re moderate. Which means they won in 06, 08, 12, 18, 20 and 22 being “moderate”.
They won in 2020 on the wake of protests and low-information voters who thought they'd be freeing the immigrant camps, defunding the police, codifying roe, and getting free healthcare.
They got wiped out in 22 by being moderate and getting fuckall done by trying to compromise with republicans for 2 years.
In 06 and 08, they were finally coming about against the Iraq war and promising things, unlike in 2004 where they simply said they would do the war more competently.
Your family is correct. America is racist and sexist. Asl yourself, after that debate and the several Trump fumbles on the campaign trail. Would you vote for him or Harris? Regardless if you thought she was perfect or not.
If you voted for Trump, you obviously didnt care about policy when every indication points to his being objectively worse. And I’m ready to argue that all day.
No. You're showing the same fundamental misunderstanding the Democrats do.
If people are hurting, and one candidate says "I see you're hurting, and I will do XYZ to help you" while another says "We're all doing fine, nothing will change with me" - it's no wonder people go with the former! Even if they are lying.
Her fascist border plan, embrace of genocide, and her running mate Liz Cheney were all great in their opinion? Wow. I need to talk to some Dems sometime.
I need to talk to some Dems sometime.
.world is here 24/7.
75 million votes
Biden got 80 million and won on a much more progressive platform (that he ignored when in office). Harris ran a conservative campaign that depressed her base in favor of appealing to republicans. It was some sorkin brained shit that obviously stupid and many of us were yelling about it at the time. We were right but Dems will never listen because they love corporate money more than winning or having a livable planet.
Well they don't even have to decide they wanna eat a shit sandwich- they just have to not be motivated enough to go to the polls and say "I'd like the snot sandwich instead of the shit sandwich, please". Which is what seems to have happened this election as best I'm aware
A lot of democratic voters weren't motivated, and didn't show up. And I agree with the statement made by the person quoted in the post, a huge part of that feels like it's the democratic party's complete unwillingness to criticize moneyed interests and figure out how to actually appeal to their constituency, and so they're loosing people. And now we're all stuck with that shit sandwich.
My concern with statements like this is that I don't think your considering the impact that misinformation had on this election.
There were massive disinformation campaigns that had sizable effects on the dialogue that people had with their friends and neighbors. I'm worried that we could have actually put someone like Bernie as our nominee and that we still would have lost because of exactly this misinformation.
The Democrat message wasn't making it to people and I think that it really shows...
Disagreeing with something doesnt make it disinformation. What were the big lies being spread about Kamala that affected the voter base? I'm not on social media, the only thing I watched was the live interview she did on fox, and she was rude and deceptive. Is an uncut interview disinformation?
Don't deny voters their agency by saying they can't make wrong choices. They can and did. They made a stupid choice for idiotic reasons, and will get nothing but suffering for it. There are situations in life where feeling deeply and unconditionally ashamed of your own idiocy is the correct course of action, and this is one of them.
Votes can't be wrong by definition, they are opinions. But if you accepted that you would have to get off your pedestal wouldnt you, and thats no fun. Go ahead and puff up your chest and brag about how obviously stupid so many people are.
Voters have agency. Let's tell them how they will be voting and do nothing to appeal to them.
If they were too insignificant to listen to, they are too insignificant to blame. Your party lost because your party is shit on purpose.
I voted for Harris and of course Trump is worse, so spare me the only talking point any of you have.
I think a lot of the core of the Kamala base is just as out of touch as the Democratic establishment. The fact that the establishment can't understand this outcome just demonstrates their ineptitude.
People are hurting, a lot. Real wage growth has been stagnant, people are having trouble making ends meet, the wealthy are richer than ever leaving the working class with less and less.
What do the Democrats do to actually improve peoples material conditions? Absolutely nothing. The CHIPS act and IRA are great for longer term problems, but does nothing to put more food on people table. Kamala had the gall to ignore the problem all together. The economy is great, look at the stock market! And her big economic plan? Tax breaks for small businesses and your first home purchase. That's it. That's their fucking cornerstone economic policy. That's not gonna help the vast majority of people.
Then on the other hand you have trump. He tells everyone it's the brown peoples fault everything sucks, so we will get rid of them (and, by implication, your problems). It's their fault egg prices are high, just get rid of them and things will go back to the way things were. Of course the rich are the real problem, not immigrants or trans people or any other conservative boogie man, but Trump acknowledged the pain many working class Americans are under.
Now you can think to yourself, how would anyone believe that? Think about someone who's working two jobs to make ends meet, they're surrounded by Fox news, all their family is Republican. They were raised in the public education system (half the country can't read at a 6th grade level) and can't parse the details of domestic economic policy, but Trump says it's the brown peoples fault. Finally they felt seen and acknowledged. They remember the Trump stimulus checks. They remember the tax break (even if it's temporary, they won't look too closely and notice it's permeant for the rich).
You know how Democrats win? By bringing back the party of FDR and really championing the working class. Thanks to citizens united we will never see that again, but it's quite easy to understand their loss against trump. There's only one issue, and thats class conflict. Until the Democrats stop serving their corporate donors they will never win again as it's too easy for Republicans to acknowledge working class pain and scapegoat marginalized people.
You know how Democrats win? By bringing back the party of FDR
At this point, I'd expect them to bring back Japanese internment camps and nothing else. I'd say redlining too, but that would involve having a housing program to be discriminatory with.
Redlining was mainly a private-sector thing involving loan availability and insurance premiums. It wasn't primarily to do with housing programs.
Not reading all that. I’m apart of Kamala’s base of 75 million. I guess I’m out of touch and super wealthy according to you.
The fact that you so proudly claimed to not want to read yet decided to respond anyway makes you pretty out of touch. That last bit is just icing on the cake since they never claimed that.
If only someone, or a group of like minded thinkers, had predicted this exact social course and offered another course that actually has ideological solutions for capital interests fucking over everything in their quest for more money and power!
Too bad RCV is moving so slowly
Can't imagine why politicians would be hesitant to mess with a system that put them in power.
RCV was on like 5 ballots last election and failed in each one. The VOTERS didn’t want it.
Neither centrists nor republicans want RCV, yeah. Republicans might lose and centrists might lose the ability to run as second worst to republicans.
Oh man that would be incredible. I’d actually be vaguely satisfied with my choices on the ballot.
Doesn't matter anymore. I was gonna type "but genocide Joe" every time trump fucks over in some way the people who had a chance to vote for Kamala. But in the end, unity is far more important, division is how putin disarticulated his opposition.
I was gonna type “but genocide Joe” every time trump fucks over in some way the people who had a chance to vote for Kamala.
That would be a great demonstration that you have learned nothing.
I admit I just don't see a path forward.
Is inflation the reason they're upset at Democrats? The US had one of the lowest rates of inflation amongst the G7 (especially with food). Corporate greed drove much of the increase. Republicans are intent on removing any possible regulation that protects consumers, Democrats did what they could via the FTC, since they didn't have enough senate seats to pass any meaningful regulatory laws.
Is wage inequality the reason? Reaganomics is the primary reason for that, Republicans have been blocking every possible improvement for it via control of the senate and the filibuster.
Is it Israel? Certainly I can see that one, but Republicans have been responsible for devastating Iraq and Afghanistan, and will probably walk us into a conflict with Iran.
What messaging can the democrats do that would overcome the unrelenting right wing propaganda machines? What policies can they adopt that they don't already have? I just don't see a way to reach voters like the ones in this article.
Anyone who thinks Trump will be less likely than the Dems to promote genocide by Israel is a fool. If anything, Trump will be bellowing for them to double down, and probably persecuting Palestinian-Americans too.
Nothing mf, this is presidential politics. You just get lucky at the right time with the right circumstances. Obama is literally the only president in the 21st Century to have a legit election victory in 2012. No Close margins like 00 or 24, no Iraq War Patriotism, no recession, no Bernie Bros hiring his campaign, no Covid. 2012 was just straight up policy.
Other than that, the parties just have to wait their turn for this polarized country to swing their direction again.
There are actually people in here that say idiotic shit like “until democrats learn that they need to go low to win”.
Stop submitting to brainwashing that has you thinking the democrats are virtuous. It’s bullshit and you are ignorant and naive if you believe that.
"Go low to win". Then Biden decided to die on the hill of support for genocide.
And so we got a President who will be even more supportive of genocide.
“We have set ourselves up for generational loss because we keep promoting from within leaders that that do not criticise the moneyed interests. They refuse to take a hard look at what Americans actually believe and meet those needs.”
Still one step lacking to understand what Republicans already do.
Moneyed interests are the leaders you get. Money is just one of the kinds of power, but a lot of other kinds are applied in the form of money. You can't seriously expect to contribute energy of a negligible cost into expressing your opinion and even casting your vote, and even donating a dollar or two, and for that to somehow give real power to your side, even multiplied by millions. You are already choosing from a limited pool of people and positions to support. Defined by parties with real power before your choice. Together with a lot of other conditions of an election.
This is why the perfect, logical, supposedly honest system the more classical kind of Democrats dream about would not result into a honest democracy.
This is why the well-meaning kind of Republicans talk about checks and balances, and interpersonal connections between people having power, and gun ownership and in tech it would seem sometimes that they want to get into dystopian future faster.
That is because dystopian future may be better than dystopian past. Every day of your life is unlike any before it. It's the same in history and good tall states with institutions and good democracies are devolving into something a bit more "1704 anno domini" all over the world. This is not anything new. The world is always changing. Unfortunately what progressives today consider progress is not the direction in which the humanity is, well, progressing.
But that dissonance is a clue for us to see. It's not Bronze Age anymore, but humans are still eating each other. Progress is meaningful on such a scale, and so little affected by someone's personal decisions, that any party or ideology calling itself "progressive" seems arrogant to the degree of madness.
Speaking of the Democrats setting themselves up for failure, if the Gaza ceasefire holds Trump will take care for it and Michigan will likely be solid red for at least a generation, not unlike Florida after Obama improved relations with Cuba.
Y’all give those arabs too much credit in Michigan
Maybe that will happen. But I think it’s far more likely that Trump will end the genocide by letting Netanyahu finish it. And I don’t really see his administration doing anything other than alienating American Muslims, since he’s certainly not going to protect them from his followers. He’ll probably egg them on.
That said, Biden could have at least pretended to care about Gaza, and didn’t, so a lot of Michigan voters are pretty fed up with the Democrats, and maybe they’ll throw their support wholeheartedly behind the Republicans. I don’t see how that will get them anything they want, but they wouldn’t be the first, and they won’t be the last, group of voters who steadfastly vote against their own self interest.
And I don’t really see his administration doing anything other than alienating American Muslims
Unlike last time, Democrats aren't going to be able to credibly pretend that they have American Muslims' backs.
I think we're at or close to the point where people just don't want another fucking corporate neoliberal in charge, and most of them don't have enough to lose to justify holding their nose to vote for more of the same. Unless the DNC does something different I expect it's just going to go to the Republicans for the foreseeable future.
Trump has so many problems. But he can at least claim he's going to be something different, which Harris and Clinton did not.
I'm referring to this. Trump surprisingly had a lot with this most recent ceasefire, and even if he didn't he'd take credit for it. I don't see him forging good relations with American Muslims, but in the future I think we'll see the GOP campaigning based on the (real or otherwise) accomplishment of bringing peace to Gaza. And when the alternative is the DNC... Yeah.
by letting Netanyahu finish it
That seems kinda unrealistic, no?
Roughly 50,000 (perhaps upwards of 70k) Palestinians have been killed in a little over a year, and if anything, the rate is slowing. The population of Gaza and the West Bank sums to about 5,000,000. The growth rate in 2022 was conservatively 1.75%. That amounts to 87,500 new people every year.
Even when you factor in Israel targeting hospitals and food to try to hurry the genocide along, it'd still take decades, if ever.
Just gonna say that the numbers you're using are direct casualties. When you include indirect casualties, such as the people who died to famine or disease due to conditions caused by the war you get numbers upward of 200k.
Counting deaths alone in Gaza and the West Bank ignores all the Palestinian refugees that have been forced to leave Palestine altogether; in either case, Israel wants to settle the rest of Palestine to cement their claim to it and control over it.
Ahh good point, it looks to be more of a 6% reduction in population if you include the 100k+ who've left.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2025/1/16/israel-hamas-ceasefire-whats-left-of-gaza-and-its-people
I'm certainly not denying that Israel's intent is to settle Palestine. Just that they even have the capability to do so within the next 4 years.
To think that trump orchestrated or built that ceasefire is complete bullshit
Americans do think foreign politics are controlled completely by the American president.
When in reality, the president can only do as he pleases when there's a genocide to outfit.
If liberals could learn they wouldn't be liberals.
If leftist could learn, they leave the Dems alone and support the socialist party.
As if it's not the dems throwing a tantrum every time someone on Lemmy promoted a third party. Clearly you people don't even know what you want.
I want you to support the Socialist Party
The Socialist Party is a third party. Maybe you should ask your fellow Dems to stop suppressing third parties first before you can get rid of the left from your party.
Until the Democrats learn to stop trying to go high when the bar has already been stapled to the floor, they will never win an election again.
voters aren't swayed by morals, "presidential" energy, or formality, they're swayed by fucking podcasts...
Until the Democrats learn to stop trying to go high
Or at least stop pretending that "we're enabling a genocide. Shut up. You will be voting for us" is "going high."
They're trying to say they're the good guys because they aren't the bad guys...
Which isn't true if they're not going to stop the bad guys
I would have said they tried to stop one and turned a blind eye to the other (Russia, and Israel)
but I dont really think anyone in power truly gave a fuck about stopping Russia either, it was clear from the getgo that the plan was not to help Ukraine win, just make sure they dont lose.
Don't forget the billions in US taxpayer money shovelled to the weapons contractors. Those in power are making a killing.
I want to see Ukraine win! I think those in power see this as a cash grab more that the necessity of a promise we made to the people of Ukraine when they gave up their nuclear weapons. We can't let them down. Same for Taiwan. Our alliance's must not be of convenience and our word has to mean something.
Those in power defiantly turned a blind eye toward Israel, supported genocide and made a killing in the process.
Our system is fucking grotesque!
The voters are going to learn a lesson.
They didn't last time. Maybe they're getting what they wanted, and it's the DNC that should be trying something different?
Or the voters can start voting better. They make their own decisions.
Sure, but the subject of this thread is whether Democrats have learned lessons from this. The Democratic Party can also make decisions, and ideally it'll make some decisions that attract more votes next time.
AFAICT, this is the story of centre left politics over the past recent years (decades? Since Reagan/thatcher?).
There’s likely a whole story to be told, but I personally suspect modern academia is actually a big but easy to ignore component.
So, voters vote even HARDER for moneyed interests by voting for the qons, or by sitting out or voting third party?
That's some real nine dimensional chess there.
They only have 2 real options, it’s either more of the same or the guy who’s promising to tear down the system. There’s really no nine dimensional chess, it’s pretty clear cut to me.
To think otherwise is, once more, a failure to learn the lesson.
The guy promising to take down the system?
He advertised everything but that including lying, broken promises, and corruption in using the system to his benefit.
That’s what voters chose.
Yes, but it’s different. Do you really not understand how simple the calculus is for people who are not politically and or philosophically engaged?
I do, actually.
Promises from a consistent liar are probably lies. Simple equation, no calculus needed.
"We think you're doing fine and we're not stopping the genocide support" from people who aren't liars will get people to stay home.
After that same guy didn't tear down the system the first time, rather giving into lobbyist interests far more than any other 'career politician' in modern American history, such as in beating the record for inaugural bribe collection he himself set eight years ago, you'd think more people would at least recognize that Trump's promises are either smoke in the wind or just a means for private interests to enrichen themselves at the expense of the American people.
To know that you’d need to be paying attention. Most people are not paying attention, they only remember they had more money back then.
Listen you can either accept that the vast majority of people are simpletons and try to make this out to be more complicated than it is, or you can understand why Trump won and use that to win next elections. Trump won because he understands that they are simpletons and engages them as such.
SHE HAS A VAGINA. THAT'S ALL IT TOOK. DEMOCRATS DIDN'T MISS THE MARK. SHE JUST HAS A VAGINA AND THE GENERAL PUBLIC WONT PUT ANYONE WITH A VAGINA IN THE WHITEHOUSE.
This is bait haha no way it's real
You're literally doing exactly what this post complains about. The overwhelming sentiment of Harris replacing Biden was change - her campaign ran on that - yet she had basically all the same stances/policies a Biden, especially where it mattered to the voterbase (I.e. Gaza). She had an opportunity to diverge from Biden's less popular platform, but chose not to, and it cost her the election. That's the rub.
As for 2016 - people did turn out for Hilary. She won the popular vote by a significantly higher margin than Harris.
And as for 2020, Biden only won so easily because Trump's woefully incompetent response to Covid19 was still in recent memory - and even that still resulted in a smaller margin than Obama's first term.
Biden got 81 million votes, hasn’t been done since.
Firstly, I should clarify that I'm looking at % margin, not absolute, as it better accounts for voter turnout.
Secondly, if you want to go by absolute votes, then it's worth noting that more people voted for Harris than voted for Hillary or Obama (who both won the popular vote).
She had the 3rd highest vote count in history, but that means nothing when she lost to Trump with the 2nd highest vote count in history.
She was battling Trump at the height of his popularity and needed the same turnout as 2020 Biden, but that simply wasn't going to happen. As I said previously 2020 Biden had Covid19 on his side, and didn't have the baggage of this election (I.e. Gaza).
Biden abdicating his candidacy to Harris was a brilliant opportunity for her to lift off the baggage Biden was carrying into the 2024 election (which he was predicted to lose), but she didn't - and as such she lost as predicted.
Her loss had nothing to do with her being a woman, and much more to do with Democrats being out of touch and relying on Republican fearmongering to get people to turn out.
People stayed home because of Gaza and the economy but yeah it's definitely because Harris is a woman.
It's a combination of all of those factors, plus others. People try to point to one thing, but a whole bunch of people didn't vote for her for a whole bunch of reasons.
Yeah, in 2016 it was so close any singular failing could have been the one that turned a win to a loss, but after this last one it's multiple.
And they all sort of reinforce themselves. Seeing Democrats abandon one political principle and then seeing them being weak on one that's close to home will make you less willing to accept it's just a messaging choice. And all of that on top of the general economic malaise and lack of punishment for bad people in positions of power and something you might have let go becomes the final straw.
Gaza holds no water, kushner and Jr were on record for seeking to build condos in gaza once it was "cleared out"
And yet Trump toured Michigan promising (and making good on said promise, surprisingly) an end to the war.
And he just launched a meme coin opening at 25 bln. Apparently rubes live on both sides of the aisle.
Raids start next week.
Edit to think he "made good" is a joke. Some conversation from him had nothing to do with months of diplomatic work from real professionals. Biden is still in office btw and any "deals" would have to go through him.
Some conversation from him had nothing to do with months of diplomatic work from real professionals.
"You don't see all the work going on behind the scenes" is Democrats' "You don't know my totally real girlfriend. She goes to another school."
How many voters do you think can find Gaza on a map?
But they sure can see that Harris is a woman.
You'll find many outlets reporting on this all citing the same poll, but here's one.
https://www.commondreams.org/news/harris-gaza
Its more like: "I voted Biden last time and grocerry prices didn't get lower, oh well I might as well stay home this time since voting didn't change anything 🤷♂️"
They did-fucking-not. They stayed home because she's a woman. Just like they did in 2016. End of fucking story. The rest is just political writers needing clicks to survive.
Lol Hillary won the popular vote despite a decade of being attacked by the media. Hillary would've been president if it were not for the electoral college. Harris didn't even have a decade long attack by the media, has somewhat of a momentum when Biden dropped out, and the Tim Walz pick also gained momentum, and there were lots of grassroot donations on the day of Biden dropping out. Still managed to perform worse than Hillary, didn't even win the popular vote.
And angry people in denial who STILL feel a need to parade their concern like it's a fucking medal.
Not really. Even Hillary won the popular vote (only didn't become president due to the outdated electoral college), Harris just sucks.
I mean, Hillary also had a lot of baggage, decade of being attacked by the media, still won popular vote. The media didn't really have a decade to trash Harris' reputation, but she still did worse than Hillary.
yeah funny how the dems can turn out for a joe biden who sucks in 2020 but not for a hillary clinton or a kamala harris who suck in 2016 and 2024. like yes, people sat out for a wide host of reasons, but there's a very glaring pattern that's very easy to see
Biden ran on progressive economic policy and a generally satisfactory platform. People had a problem with his age, but he didn't suck, not in the same way Harris and Hillary did.
the lack of criticism for how centrist and shitty joe biden, just like hillary and kamala, is kind of exactly what i'm talking talking about. they all three suck in basically all the exact same ways. of all the candidates to run in 2020 primaries, he was basically the worst one. kamala was actually more progressive than him. but yet, here we are. arguing that he ran left of Kamala's 2024 bid. and before you bring up palestine, they've all been shit on that subject since 2006 at least, so drop it. that's not why kamala lost at the end of the day. it's that joe biden was allowed to win as a mediocre white man in 2020, but kamala had to do everything perfect to be viable in the eyes of those 19 million voters who stayed home, especially in the swing states where people absolutely mobilized to get out the vote for an overtly fascistic and racist orange candidate
they all three suck in basically all the exact same ways.
No they didn't. Biden ran on progressive policy written by Sanders; Harris ran on including Republicans in her cabinet and finishing the border wall.
so drop it.
No I won't. 29% of people who voted Biden in 2020 and stayed home in 2024 cited it as the top reason they stayed home. It is part of the reason Harris lost because she didn't promise to do anything different from Biden while Trump did (and seemingly kept his promise for once).
BIDEN IS A TALL WHITE MAN. THAT'S WHY HE WON. THAT'S WHAT IT TAKES TO WIN IN THIS IDIOT INFESTED COUNTY.
- MAN
- WHITE
- TALL
NOTHING ELSE MATTERS.
You learned nothing.
Obama was president for eight years.
SEE NUMBERS 1 AND 3 ABOVE.
Fucking sigh.
